Yellow Peril: Are you gonna liberate us girls from male, white, corporate oppression?
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laptop perched on my knees
Oi, is that Robyn Draper i hear? better not be any shiraz in the next post or there could be trubba.
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especially you debs. i think we, once again, wrote the same piece (i think we need to co-author a journal article).
Yes.... it's a bit worrying. Great minds or fools?
"Debs"?!!! "Deb" if you please, or the full moniker, or even "Hey, you!"
BTW, when Che says we wrote the same piece, he means our doctoral theses. I first contacted him when he started writing interesting stuff on PA, and by comparing notes, we figured out that we had reached much the same conclusions in our theses, 'tho his was in Pol Sci tending towards Sociology, and mine was in Philosophy tending towards Pol Theory and Pol Sci. Naturally, I think that his ideas are BRILLIANT.
The interweb really is a marvellous thing.
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I've been a bit left behind by this thread as I've been - shock horror - working at work instead of writing at work (I know, curse my name) but I'd just like to chip in belatedly and thank Deborah for the post that made this entire blog entry/thread worth its weight in... uh... magnetic storage. If that was a blog posting I would have been motivated to sign up an account to agree with it. And hey, since I've already signed up, why not try to knock it out in terms of word count?
Some points that have been knocking around my head at work today after reading this in the morning:
The Kathy Sierra fiasco was something that was born out of part of what is easily referred to as the geek community. As somebody who, by nature if not background, fits the profile of a geek very well I'd maybe like to attempt to try to connect some threads of discussion together. Keep in mind as I write this that my qualifications consist:
1) GCSE Maths taken when I was 14.
2) A qualification in hitting inanimate objects with pieces of wood.... therefore anything I say is derived from personal experience rather than academic study.
Deborah, you observe that men are - speaking in generalisations - often better at single-minded focus in their activities than women. That's my experience too, and I'd argue that it cuts both ways - as well as being a gift if you want to get something involved done, it's also a curse in that it is (in extreme forms) rather socially retarded and, emotionally speaking, detrimental to staying particularly healthy.
Geeks are really the ultimate example of this. They (And I'm partially speaking of myself here, but also not) can pull of some of the most impressive feats of intellectual focus and specialisation out there, yet this trait is frequently inversely proportional to their ability to actually deal with people. But that's not to say that they're emotionally stunted and don't feel emotions. They just get them from different sources. More on this in a sec.
Deborah talks in her post about considering male and female differences as being of, in effect, different contributions of equal value. That's something I tend to believe in quite fervently. I'm going to speak generally for a second, and of course there are many exceptions in both directions. Women, in my experience, often offer more in respect to building emotionally sound, healthy environments for themselves and those around them as part and parcel of whatever they decide to do with their lives. Men perhaps offer more in the ability to go way, way off the deep end in focusing on something to get it done - frequently way beyond any actual benefit to themselves that achievement might conceivably provide.
And that's the rub. Geeks (for lack of a better word) do very clever things like write books like "The C Programming Language" - which is a fantastic bit of writing, if you're skewed sufficiently geekward to read it. If you're not, it'll probably seem dry as a fossilised dog turd. They don't do this because it gives them geekMana Points++; they do it because it makes them feel a genuine emotional sense of reward. As such, what seems totally uncontroversial and benign to what I'll describe for convenience as a normal human being might seem incredibly emotionally important to a geek.
Somebody earlier made a point that Kathy Sierra wasn't writing about anything controversial - y'know, just technology. If you hang around the "right" (or wrong, depending on perspective) parts of the internet you'd be well aware that there are few topics more controversial to geeks than technology. After all, I doubt there's few non-geeks who'd consider the difference between a tab and a space a good reason for even tongue-in-cheek references to capital punishment. The amount of sheer vitriol that is exchanged over what seems like (rather, is) absolutely trivial minutiae in the geek world is incredible. But it's part and parcel of the same emotional responses that make the whole state of being possible.
None of that is, of course, any excuse for what happened to Kathy Sierra - any more than suggesting that metal fans are passionate about their music is an excuse for what happened to Dimebag Darryl. But I'd suggest both are certainly explainable as events born from a largely male tendency to go way, way off the deep end emotionally when a particular topic grips their attention for a bit too long - and particularly when they're left in isolation, largely in communities of other males who consider similarly trivial matters equally emotionally intense.
There has been linked mention elsewhere of, in effect, a deep well of misogynistic behavior in the online geek world. To an extent this is true, but in all honesty I wouldn't describe it as worse or arguably even as bad as many other predominantly male environments. It's just that in the absence of women - and one problem that more extreme geeks do tend to have in life is an absence of women - myths and/or obsessions about them tend to spring up to replace the reality. Combine that with a distinct lack of social graces and... yes... see results on display in many places online.
In tandem, a tendency towards very obsessive emotional reactions to techie minutiae and a really rather poor understanding of what women are like in real life is undoubtedly a nasty combo to find yourself on the wrong end of. But I'd argue that socially there are better avenues to persue to "taming" of the geek community than trying to view it as an education or solidarity/community response issue alone. The problem is that the internet tends to allow people to group in situations that they feel comfortable with. So while most of us feel comfortable at Public Address, I doubt few of the commenters at Little Green Footballs would find it too accommodating.
The "We need to start calling them out!" argument is, in real life, a damn good one. After all, in reality it's a lot harder to build entirely homogeneous communities - it's the differences between people that keep people accepting of difference, because being intolerant of it results in you being shunned to a degree that you start getting the message. Unless you're rather thick, of course, in which case you go and join a political group for people who fear difference.
But I'm not convinced that merely calling people out, online, is going to do a whole lot of good. They'll just find themselves a new home with people they feel comfortable around, who don't say scary distracting things like "You're not behaving correctly". They're not, of course, but that's largely irrelevant if they're in a group that accepts the same standard of behavior. Look at certain other blog comments sections for an illustration: you can try calling people out if you like, but you'll probably find yourself attacked en-masse by a bunch of people who find safety in numbers.
So what's the solution? I don't have a single one to offer. I do have a couple of thoughts, however:
1) When you go places reliably occupied by obsessives, it's usually not a good idea to use your real name and traceable contact details unless you can see concrete benefit in doing so from the outset. It's easier to start a blog under a pseudonym and then unmask yourself later if you feel comfortable than to do the reverse. This isn't about right and wrong, it's just the same kind of pragmatism that suggests it's a good idea not to walk too close to strangers in dark secluded places when you're out at night.
2) Recognising that communities of male obsessives aren't necessarily malicious is helpful. Generally they're not - few (if any) geeks are sitting out there plotting the enslavement of womenkind, they're typically more interested in valid XHTML+CSS or whether their data structures cause unnecessary memory overhead inside the inner loop. Engagement is probably a better tactic than confrontation. I'm saying that as somebody with rather severe geek tendencies that are held in check by a variety of more human activities by a lot of non-geek people around me. Left to my own devices I can find one topic an endless source of deeply emotionally involving interest - as you can tell by the stupendous length of this post.
But I'm not left to my own devices, because of situations arrived at both accidentally and deliberately. For example, soon my delightful better half will be home, and she'll say something like "Jesus christ, did you write all that?" and look at me in slightly worried dismay. And I'll react to that and knock it off. Because let's face it, there's really very little actual real return beyond obsessive interest in these discussion threads and endless online political conversations either. Maybe that's why they're usually full of boys?
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That was really good, Finn. I could (hah!) probably debate bits and pieces of it, but I'm most grateful to you and Deborah for putting in the spadework.
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Wow. Thank you, Finn. That has given me a lot to think about. Particularly because I have already bought into your point about the extraordinary things that men (and some women) can achieve through their single minded focus. As you say, it's a blessing. And of course, a curse. Likewise my capacity to manage many things at once, but never quite manage the focus that would lead me to personal success in one field, instead of pretty good, but no more than that, achievement in a number of fields.
Interesting points you make about how to manage the obsessives. I will have to think about those for a bit. Perhaps the two strategies, yoru pragmatism, and my call-them-on-it, need to be deployed together.
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Perhaps the two strategies, yoru pragmatism, and my call-them-on-it, need to be deployed together.
viva la difference
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Erm. Well after the ship has sailed, Deborah, I want to join the props-giving chorus. Your analysis of the different kinds of feminism was great. (Essentialism: incredibly annoying, yet in some ways inescapable? Discuss.)
(Parenthetically, the discussion about why women don't speak up in online political fora reminded me of something else, more trivial but sort of related. I always found being a female pop-music nerd a little annoying, at least until relatively recently. There seemed to be so few of us, and it would take so damn long for the guys in a music-related conversation to accept that a woman might conceivably know what she was talking about. The conversational problem wasn't usually that overt: you might have ended up being patronised or treated dismissively. This situation has, thankfully, changed considerably in the last decade, in real life and online. I'm not exactly sure why, though...)
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Thanks Finn that was really interesting.
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Coming to the party very late I have just sat and read the whole 9 pages of comments. Not sure if my eyes or brain hurts more.
I just want to put one more nail in the coffin: clearly there are difference between threats directed at women and those directed at others. Most glaringly global stats show women experience horrific levels of violence (overwhelmingly perpetrated by men):
Unicef: over %50 of women experience domestic violence
UN Commission on the Status of Woman: Globally, at least one in three women and girls had been beaten or sexually abused in her lifetime.
So when a femblogger gets threatened she has to take it more seriously than a manblogger, because women experience higher levels of 'actual' violence. This in turn amplifies the psychological effects of the threat.
Secondly, does anyone realise it's Mana Wahine Week? (roughly, Maori Feminism Week for international lurkers).
Thirdly, re: ODMs and EODMs standing up and being counted, I agree in principle but in practice maybe not always...
I'm working on a construction site at the moment and endured in silence the racism, bigotry, homophobia and sexism of my fellow workers for a couple of weeks. Then I thought fuck it, I don't wanna have to put up with this shit so i called them out on the very next wolf whistle and lewd shouted comment. They just looked at me and said little, and I felt a little proud that I'd had the courage to speak out.
Now they take every opportunity to shout 'ooga booga' at my polynesian brethren, loudly treat women as meat, etc etc. All for my benefit. And i think, if I had of just shut up then less people, particularly women, would have to deal with harrassment and abuse as they walk past the corner of Victoria and Nelson streets in Auckland City.
So at every turn ODMs should stand up? I dunno, made a negative difference in this case, as far as i can see. Doesn't mean i won't call people out at all in the future but sometimes resistance really does seem to be futile.
PS: If anyone has any suggestions on how to remedy the situation I'm all ears... I like the idea of a 1000 women showing up at lunchtime one day, surrounding the site and wolf whistling/cat calling to their hearts content. No no, 500 wahine and 500 tane turning up would be even better. A taste of ones own medicine.
But then again, that sounds like a particularly masculine solution.
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Great post Finn.
While communities of male obsessives may not necessarily be inherently malicious, I have a feeling that there's a huge resentment generated from the way in which they're often complicit in their own exploitation. Technology and a lack of imagination makes a dangerous combination, and even women aren't immune - during the RSI plague of the early 80s there were stories of female typists obsessively competing to achieve astronomical word-per-minute scores with the then new-fangled word processors.I suspect most geeks sense that, without some degree of vision and imagination, they're working themselves out of a job, or at least condemning themselves to the treadmill of techno-peasantry. It seems that Kathy Sierra became the focus of envy and loathing simply because, in addition to being technically savvy, she was outgoing and imaginative, with great communication skills. And, as Russell noted, blonde and attractive. You bust your nuts saving the world with your C (or whatever) skills for a bunch of ungrateful technoklutzes, and here's this chick getting the kudos. Why isn't she an airhead? It's against nature.
As Marshall McLuhan was supposed to have said, "The future masters (sexist, yes - this was 1969) of technology will have to be light-hearted and intelligent - the machine easily masters the grim and the dumb." Perhaps creativity and imagination are an inherent gift, but I believe they can at least be developed, if not taught. There was a certain hideously misdirected creativity in some of the vile stuff posted by those venting their frustrations on Sierra.
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That was very enlightening Finn, thank you
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your workmates' response made me laugh Manakura, i know exactly what you mean. i guess all you can do is fight the battles you can win.
their 'new and improved harrassment plus' will soon go back to baseline. but you should take some solace in the fact too that some of them will actually have heard what you said and will be quietly gnawing at themselves for thinking the same but not having the guts to have said it. that will have an affect on their behaviour over time. -
<echoing...> Great posts Finn and Deborah.
I'd just add that in my experience (referencing my not-so-inner geek) there's something or things about computers that bring out the obsessive-compulsive in men at least and I suspect people.
I'm almost convinced there's a simple behaviourist explanation :-)- click = instant satisfaction .... when click does not = satisfaction male speci-man with only a rudimentary knowledge of what he's doing pulls out pci cards, runs chkdsk, hunts on internet all night until- (sigh!) click = satisfaction... or (groan!) expensive computer is -quite irrevocably and he's not sure why- dead dead dead. -
Manakura - just a wee note to say thanks for trying.
I don't think you shouldn't have spoken up.
As Riddley said, maybe you will have got through to some of them...either way, you know you did the right thing, and that's a good feeling even if the result wasn't what you wanted.
Making a commitment to showing one's opposition to sexism/racism/homophobia is a powerful action.
Of course you have to pick your battles, it's no good getting a broken face, but using humour and staying calm have worked for me in the past.
Thanks again for making the effort. -
PS: If anyone has any suggestions on how to remedy the situation I'm all ears... I like the idea of a 1000 women showing up at lunchtime one day, surrounding the site and wolf whistling/cat calling to their hearts content. No no, 500 wahine and 500 tane turning up would be even better. A taste of ones own medicine.
Hysterical, and I'd love to see it. But also, I think likely to backfire. A strong attack is good defence sometimes, but other times it's just the fastest way to a backlash.
When I was at varsity, for a while there was a bunch of construction work going on on the road out the back, and I went past twice a day. Now, there were only half a dozen guys there, and I think force of numbers makes a big difference. I responded to the first day's whistling with a bow, the second by engaging in joking by-play, and by the end of the week, we were greeting each other like normal human beings. It probably made no difference at all to any other women, but y'know, sometimes you just have to accept that you can't change the world, and like Riddley says, fight the battles you can win.
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It sounds like the construction workers were teasing, both the passers-by and Manakura. This requires special defensive mental judo techniques, and it is why Emma's response worked.
Actually that's worth considering in the context of online harassment.
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a few of the bigger companies in australia put a clause in their contracts.
"that any complaints from the public will result in withdrawal of said contract, and no further acceptance of tenders by that company."
quietest (but leery-est) damn construction sites you've ever seen.
but as for harrassment. i was in a situation in a kitchen where i explained to the chefs that they were under no circumstances talk to me ever about my gf at the time. very, very strong language was involved, and seemed to work.
when i wasn't there to enforce it...
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Thanks for the props gals ... and guys... and while I'm at it thanks Anjum for appreciating excessive commenting on Thread That Would Not Die I. It is tiring being the only one in your corner and I have huge respect for peoples such as yourself that don't feel the annoying need to justify their episteme to ignorant outsiders. That takes some strength.
Anyway, to the topic of upping involvment of wahine, and indeed all not covered by the white boy liberal tag. Maybe this is to obvious but I would think one small way would be to, excuse the pun, start bitchin. Meaning, complain (or make helpful suggestions, whatever) to your otherwise favoured blogs/online media source about the lack of female, and/or POC voices. Both in comments and in private emails to whoever has their finger on the button.
Encourage other similarly minded people - ODMs & ODPs (Ordinary Decent Pakeha) included to do the same. I imagine, like other organsations, your friendly neighbourhood blog will eventually follow their audience's wishes and slowly develop a more diverse and challenging range of voices.
This in turn will bring more wahine and POC's to the readership, attracted by voices and analysis that is familiar and reflects their lived experience. These peeps can then be encouraged to join the kaupapa of diversifying pol/current affairs blogs, adding further impetus for positive change.
It seems obvious and kinda simplistic but it usually works, at least in my experience. Just takes a really really long time.
Disclaimer: I accept no responsibility for any deluge of emails to RBs inbox demanding more Lesbian Maori Muslim Treaty Lawyer Amputee Bloggers on PA.
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Kia kaha, Manakura!
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So much I want to say on this but the electrician and plumber are hopefully about to walk in the door, so for now...
Manakura, on the issue of raising the lack of women, I've been doing this out there on the other nz pol blogs for quite some time now and doing so buys a whole world of trouble most times. In the last six months less so, and I think a lot of that is down to a) a few more women around and b) PAS showing that it is possible to have a big political blog and lots of comments without it inevitably turning into a sewer. I have had quite a lot of backlash in the past, including from other women bloggers, for bitchin' and from reading feminist blogs overseas I can see it's not just NZ that has this problem.
Lucky I'm a patient person ;-)
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Disclaimer: I accept no responsibility for any deluge of emails to RBs inbox demanding more Lesbian Maori Muslim Treaty Lawyer Amputee Bloggers on PA.
Heh. I can't do much about the demographic, other than trying to run a welcoming lounge in line with my own philosophy. I can't solve the whole blogosphere's problems, but I can take responsibility for my little part.
By the same token, I'm grateful - and respectful - to anyone who turns up and makes a useful contribution, be they the dreaded white liberal males or otherwise.
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Not quite a non-sequitur, but do not gank women WoWsers whatever you do.
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Strictly on the subject of the lack of female political bloggers, and primarily from my experience of kiwi political blogs, in the sense that they're not viciously misogynist in the way that the blogs that have hit the news are (well, except where they're viciously anti-everything, misogyny doesn't really come high on the list):
It's put in mind the woman that interviewed the female staff at my workplace (a software outsourcer) a few years back. She was doing some research and discovered that since the '80s, after the whole "girls can do anything" drive, the proportion of women in every single male-dominated industry had risen, except the IT industry, where it had dropped. During the interview she told me the one theory that looked most plausible was that would-be career women don't feel the need to prove themselves so much, so they're more motivated to enter a career they actually enjoy.
Anyway, I wonder if pol-blogging is just something that women generally don't enjoy as much as men? I've very occasionally blogged current affairs, obviously I'm happy commenting on other political blogs, but it's not something I'd do on a regular basis. Partly that's because I find the energetic nature of the debate difficult to sustain, partly I'm not that interested in the subject matter (or tire of it quickly) and partly there's sufficient people blogging/commenting that most of what I'm thinking gets said eventually anyway.
So...if that's the case, then I don't think there really needs to be so much emphasis on getting more female readers, rather than just ensuring that the landscape is suitable for the ones that are reading... even then, I think an important part of political blogging is the spirited debate / tedious diatribe, and there's no case for quashing that just for the sake of getting more girls to read. In that sense I think PAS is the ideal middle-ground (spirited but friendly, with political and non-political subject matter), current proportion of female contribution is probably about the best you're going to get.
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merc,
During the interview she told me the one theory that looked most plausible was that would-be career women don't feel the need to prove themselves so much, so they're more motivated to enter a career they actually enjoy.
This is great and applies equally for some males I might add, or maybe I'm just a de-motivated poesy girlie man. There comes a time in everyone's life I think when they stop doing things for approval and plum for enjoyment.
In old age men go to the earth, women the air. -
This is great
Yeah, actually, it just occurred to me now that she was probably hunting for some indication of rampant misogyny that was exclusive to IT. I know a couple of women that had some problems in university engineering courses, but my experience of the industry has been all good.
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