Hard News: Contains strong language
136 Responses
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Adams and Paisley should spend the rest of their lives on their knees, thanking God they're not being held in a cell awaiting their trials for crimes against humanity.
That's for them and their conscience. I'm no fan of either but I think they played a big role in bringing the psychopaths on both sides under control. They may have been a part of the problem to begin with but once they became a part of the solution then that's when it's time to move on.
From what I've read of Uribe he might be playing a similar role. What I've seen of Chavez is that he's definitely an Adams or Paisley from the 70's.
I'm far more impressed with Lula da Silva than with Uribe or Chavez and don't spend a lot of time angsting over Castro, the Cuban revolution having lived up to some of its ideals at least. But I'm not going to accept that US support for Uribe is tantamont to supporting rigth wing death squads without a bit more evidence.
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WH,
All the justified cases in the world won't convince me
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood that to obtain an ASBO the target must be shown, on the criminal standard, to have engaged in behaviour likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress. This is despite the fact that ASBO's are civil, not criminal orders. Secondly, any breach of an ASBO (the event that attracts criminal sanctions) must be proved to the criminal standard. I don't see the force in your objection?
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It's more complicated than that, Weston.
The second part of the test - whether an ASBO is necessary to prevent further harm - is on the civil standard.
As to the breaching part, while I accept that it is treated as a crime, I am still bothered by the ability for a court to create a personalised crime, just for you. I don't like that idea either.
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WH,
The second part of the test - whether an ASBO is necessary to prevent further harm - is on the civil standard.
This is simply because its not possible to prove what will happen in the future beyond a reasonable doubt. ASBO's arise from a judicial process, not an exercise in clairvoyance.
My sympathies are not with those who make a habit of making life unpleasant for others. There is only so much irritation people can reasonably be asked to bear. With respect, I do not believe it is any more complicated than that.
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Whether it is an Uribe, a Paisley or a Adams, whomever is left standing after a civil war or violence of some sort is not going to be a saintly chap with no blood on his hands, but they are the ones who have the ability to bring the violence to an end and make peace, if they have the vision to do so. Uribe is no saint but he has Colombia heading in the right direction, which is a lot more than can be said for Chavez.
As for Castro's drug trafficking activities, these are just 2 of the articles that came up with a Google search.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n23_v43/ai_11732953
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/archive/cubaandcocaine.htmlYes, much of the coke comes from or is processed in Colombia. Until Americans stop shoveling it up their noses it will keep coming, along with the huge damage it does to both Colombian and US societies.
As for comparing Chavez's stacking of the Supreme Court with his lackeys with Roberts and Alito and the process they went through, that is just pathetic. Roberts and Alito are both supremely well qualified for their posts, yes they are conservatives, just as Clinton's appointees Ginsberg & Breyer are both liberals. Elections have consequences. Roberts just crushed the Dems on the Senate Judiciary committee during his hearing, it was fun to listen to, man against boy stuff.
Below is an interesting review Venezuela's democracy as of 2002. Go to page 35 onwards. It highlights the downhill slide Chavez has Venezuela's democracy on. It has gone downhill further since 2002.
http://kellogg.nd.edu/publications/workingpapers/WPS/294.pdf
And yes, the Yanks have propped up some nasty characters over time. Some of it was in the "zero sum game" environment of the cold war, and some of it has been and continues to be oil related (Saudi Arabia). But the Yanks have also pulled the rug out from under a number of their nasty characters. Noriega sits in a US prison. Pinochet was told to step aside and/or have an election (but look how well Chile has done on the path Pinochet put it on, truly the envy of Latin America). Marcos was ditched. Both South Korea and Taiwan were told to clean up their acts. And the last time I checked, those countries that had had the largest US presence for the longest time, Germany Japan and South Korea were doing quite well.
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That's for them and their conscience.
Well, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree and I'll praise you for your generosity in assuming Adams and Paisley have anything that could be mistaken for a conscience. I've seen little evidence of it.
They may have been a part of the problem to begin with but once they became a part of the solution then that's when it's time to move on.
Hum... at the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm sure Günter Grass would agree. So would Leni Reifenstahl come to that. Personally, I'm thankful some people just aren't willing to move on when history - and truth - becomes inconvenient to present needs and personal reputations. Look as I said, sure it's better having these two inside the tent pissing out, rather than outside trying to burn it down. All I'm asking is that we don't 'move on' from the suffering those two defended and encouraged.
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My sympathies are not with those who make a habit of making life unpleasant for others.
Neither are mine. However, I care about civil liberty even more. ASBOs have a fundamentally arbitrary element, coupled with a neither-fish-nor-fowl legal character, and I think that makes them ripe for abuse.
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My sympathies are not with those who make a habit of making life unpleasant for others. There is only so much irritation people can reasonably be asked to bear.
So the litmus test of whether I belong in jail or not is whether I irritate you?
You obviously assume you don't irritate anyone else, much, I assume, as other backers of this creepy, fascistic legislation.
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All I'm asking is that we don't 'move on' from the suffering those two defended and encouraged.
Good on you. I ever-so-humbly submit that you make your point very effectively when it isn't couched in a tone of towering moral superiority.
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For what t's worth, ASBO's were thought up in part to address the fact that it's unbelievably difficult for a landlord to evict tennants in the UK, no matter how they are behaving or even if they don't pay any rent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting#United_KingdomThis doesn't apply to NZ though, so I agree entirely with the post - keep ASBO law in the UK please. I suppose I just want to emphasise that the UK has waaaay more problems than ASBO's.
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WH,
You obviously assume you don't irritate anyone else, much, I assume, as other backers of this creepy, fascistic legislation.
That is not very nice, rodgerd.
If you don't believe that anti-social behaviour is a proper target of regulation, that is your right. If you don't believe that breaching a Court order made pursuant to properly enacted legislation (and generally subject to the criminal standard of proof) warrants the imposition of criminal penalties, so be it. You are also entitled to think that the UK Labour Party is "creepy" and "fascistic", for all that helps to advance your case.
But I'm not convinced that you are right, and I am prepared to reject your apparent assumption that you are on the moral and/or legal high ground.
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James said:
. . . look how well Chile has done on the path Pinochet put it on . . .
And hasn't America gone ahead since Bin Laden jolted it out of its pre-9/ll complacency.
Once you've subscribed to the acceptable-collateral can't-make-an-omelette-without-breaking-eggs line, no analogy is too sick. -
There's an awful lot of properly enacted legislation in this world.
When the court order can be as broad as don't use any doorbells in city limits, or don't enter any building taller than 3 stories, then no, I don't think that the imposition of criminal penalties is warranted.
Criminal proof may be necessary to impose penalties, but it's a hell of a lot easier to prove that someone entered a medium rise building than that they did so with any intent to build a pirate radio station on top of it.
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That is not very nice, rodgerd.
Nicer than your desire to send people to prison for irritating you.
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bah, criminal standards of proof.
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There's an awful lot of properly enacted legislation in this world.
Quite. I'll refrain from the obvious example of the Nuremburg laws, but one may consider the case of stoning gays to death in Iran because, hey, it's properly enacted legislation in a democracy!
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Venezuela, yawn. It's only because the US doesn't like the place that Chavez is a household name. In every other way it's a just another South American country, strongly inclined to fascism, dealing with third world problems that developed nations can barely appreciate. There are much worse fascists than Chavez who aren't on the hate lists, or are actively supported. Some of them even *are* developed nations.
Census, just do it. This is not the third Reich and they're not collecting the data so they can find all the Jews. If you object to the odd question, don't answer it.
ASBOs???? NOOOOO! There's already plenty of ways of dealing with nuisances without undermining the Bill of Rights.
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.......... The census.
If you dont want to fill one out its quite simple.
You tell the person dropping of the forms an incorrect (lower) number of people who reside at the dwelling than is true.
In the last 20+ years I've filled out 2 census and there was some good fiction in those.
....... and I only filled out those 2 because it wasn't me who answered the door when the bloody things were delivered.
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WH,
I'll refrain from the obvious example of the Nuremburg laws, but one may consider the case of stoning gays to death in Iran because, hey, it's properly enacted legislation in a democracy!
I've always thought exaggeration should be a crime. Rest assured that if I was in charge I would give you an ASBO, rodgerd. Your mother! :) Thats another thing that should be a crime - electronic smileys.
Fair point, Tim.
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There's already plenty of ways of dealing with nuisances without undermining the Bill of Rights.
And there's my objection to importing one of the Blair Government's more dopey ideas in a nutshell. And here's something else to think about: I'm chronically irritated by most of the human race most of the time. (And, Weston that's no exaggeration.) Would you want me handing out ASBOs any time soon?
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You are also entitled to think that the UK Labour Party is "creepy" and "fascistic", for all that helps to advance your case.
I don't think the ASBO is a particularly enlightened legislation, but didn't really think much of it. However, with talk of introducing national identity cards (with the eventual goal of not allowing anyone to get a passport without one) and transport tracking (for the purposes of reducing carbon emissions), the UK government starts looking creepier by the month.
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James,
As I said, the French put a whole team onto these Castro / Coke ties for several years and came up with nothing. That National Review story you posted is pretty damn nutty in places, no? Did you actually read that PBS story? Convicted drug smugglers and anonymous gangsters? Please? Once again, you post a wild claim, with actual figures (I think you said a fairly precise $6-700 million). as fact, but are unable to back it when askedNoriega sits in a US prison.
But I guess asking the question why clouds the issue somewhat.....
Some of it was in the "zero sum game" environment of the cold war
Less than a kilometre from where I sit now, in 1966, a whole village was marched out and executed one by one, men, women and children, as the the US Embassy sent messages of support to the perpetrators, and released food credits and weaponry. Papers available since the mid nineties show that not only was the Embassy aware of what was going on across the nation (perhaps the biggest massacre in history) but actively encouraged it. The perpetrator was bolstered and supported until the populace managed to oust him in 1998, whilst the US Embassy worked to keep him in office. Since the 65-66 bloodshed the same man had invaded East Timor, with the express approval of Gerald Ford, an invasion that cost the lives of one third of Timor's populace. All of this you brush away as the "zero sum game" environment of the cold war.
There are similar tinpot fascists operating in Central Asia right now under the US wing. And you have the balls to accuse Chavez of "dismantling democracy".
As I said, I'm not a fan of the man but you could almost hear the universal roar of approval as the man made his famous sulphur statement in the UN...couple that with the fact that he's caused a damn sight less pain, bloodshed and destablisation, and is no more tainted by glaring corruption than the administration you happily wave a flag for........
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However, with talk of introducing national identity cards (with the eventual goal of not allowing anyone to get a passport without one) and transport tracking (for the purposes of reducing carbon emissions), the UK government starts looking creepier by the month.
Don't forget the CCTV cameras and the spy drones.
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You know, I've long suspected that James B is on Russell's payroll.
Every topic he gets into sparks rabid debate and posts tend to exceed the hundred mark fairly quickly...
You cunning bastard Brown...
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Simon, what a bumout. The only massacre near where I live would have been on the moa, and at least that was for food. Who could say no to a drumstick that size?
Were those massacres when Wolfowitz was ambassaor to Indonesia?
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