Speaker: Copyright Must Change
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uhhh, no, as I say, I just offered the tip, I haven't started on this stuff (and have no intention of doing so).
Well, you should, and in book form. I for one would love to read it.
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Its the same in any industry, buyer beware.
Good, god, next you'll be saying that no one is guaranteed a living...
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if they want to get rich, get a business head on your shoulders. ignorance isn't an excuse
Fortunately for people like Gilbert O'Sullivan, the aforementioned Mr. Knoffler, and Elton John, plus a whole bunch of others, the courts don't agree with you.
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Well, you should, and in book form.
I'm not sure if I'm quite the one to do that but it's gagging to be written by someone. There's lots out there already. The Mansion on The Hill is great, albeit very dated, industry book, as is The Hitmen, although there's yet to be a book that I know of which has gone at it from a more artist and their contracts POV, rather than the intrigues of label politics.
There are a couple of good books on music industry court cases, but the most fascinating books on recording contracts are a part of the industry that is books about the Beatles, and they, of course, are a law unto themselves.
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Good, god, next you'll be saying that no one is guaranteed a living...
rofflenui
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there's a pool less than 10 metres away for me to twist embarrassingly beside
I had the misfortune in the mid 90s of a neighbouring grey-shoed 50ish lothario whose idea of heaven was inviting his braying pals over to splish drunkenly in the spa while inflicting Brothers in Arms on all and sundry.
Put me off pools for ages..
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Good, god, next you'll be saying that no one is guaranteed a living...
only if you can find me a world recognised and respected artist to say it to, but you've set the bar pretty high on that one. Its hardly worth bothering, I'm not going to do it better than you.
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Fortunately for people like Gilbert O'Sullivan, the aforementioned Mr. Knoffler, and Elton John, plus a whole bunch of others, the courts don't agree with you.
as I said, aside from the fair dealing aspects of it, which do apply to other industries and activities, being unaware that majors try this shit is hardly breaking news. No you don't have to sing with them, maybe the offer something others can't. maybe stardom is the goal.
The only reason we care so much about people getting fucked over in music and film is cos pretty stars are involved in it. people get fucked over all the time in all kinds of business, we don't turn it into mythology,
all I'm saying is if you and I can avoid being fucked over then its not too much to expect others to have a clue.and good to know gilbert o'sullivan is ok, I lie awake at nights worrying about him, so good to know he's ok, and elton and the knoffler. I'll look forward to seeing their stories on fair go.
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Simon, thanks for those insights over the last few pages.
One of the comments made a few times has been about how passionate this debate has become. I suspect there are shysters on both sides.
But I also have a feeling the debate is passionate because the recording industry reps think that they can shit all over an area of 'new' technology with the same successful outcomes they have had in the past.
Their problem this time, however, is that the new tech is not a bit of shimmery plastic or magnetic tape but an intricate infrastructure that has had a most profound affect on how many many people operate. The revolution took seed long before the recording industry took notice.
In other words, this time it is different, this time they are talking about impacting on lives and businesses on a massive scale, and so the push back is likely to be massive and, given the contexts you describe, not without justifiable passion.
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Sorry Rob, that's silly, you know it.
I know you are gonna go all over the place with this but the logic of your argument is that it's ok for me to take your car if you didn't lock it. After all, you were warned. That your failure to act overrides your legal rights and my obligations and binds under law.
For you to assume that the pages of Rolling Stone, a few web sites and chat rooms allow an 18 year old to navigate a 50 page contract, which is the extension of a brief deal memo which promises the world is ridiculous, and for you to imply that their desire for success overrides society's legal mechanism and obligation to protect them is just unacceptable.
And I have been fucked over, but willingly as I knew what was going down (and no, before you say it, that's not the reason I'm writing this) and I had no choice at the time (which I don't want to go into). Plenty of musicians too are in that position too. Does that make it right, no? But sometimes you have to do a Robert Johnson. Maybe you've never had that drive but most musicians I know have at some stage, and many get burnt. Your implication is that they are responsible for that. You can say silly boy / girl but that doesn't remove the onus from the other party to deal fairly.
As I said, the courts have already weighed in on this, in the US, UK and Australia.
This is getting nonsensical and starting to go around in silly circles again. Count me out...again.
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The revolution took seed long before the recording industry took notice.
In other words, this time it is different, this time they are talking about impacting on lives and businesses on a massive scale, and so the push back is likely to be massive and, given the contexts you describe, not without justifiable passion.
Agreed Don, but there were many in the recording industry who did take notice. One of the key chapters in that book both Mark and I linked to is a dismantling of Doug Morris's 2007 Wired Interview in which he pleads tech ignorance. He (CEO of Univeral Music and a righteous dinosaur) says 'we didn't see Napster and the internet coming as we are not tech savvy'. But they had loads of advice and very smart people who were simply being ignored. Morris, really, was just making it up to suit. They, being the big labels and large indies, then thought the post CD boom and cash explosion of the 80s and 90s, would last forever. Even after the industry took down Napster they thought it was going to be, more or less, a return to the days of rolling in the money bins, Scrooge McDuck style.
So when Apple came calling they did a shitty deal with Jobs because they were a) desperate and b) thought that it (iTunes) was only a Mac platform thing. Duh....
I agree with you, the recording industry still doesn't realise how big the kickback against them is and could be, and a huge part of that comes from simply alienation of their audience. They've taken themselves from heroes to villains in half a generation and most of it is their own doing.
Do they, in NZ, realise how many people went 'fuck you' over S92a? I don't think so. It really pissed off so many ordinary (as much as I hate that phrase) people, and they're never coming back.
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It's sad to see potential wasted.
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Back to more important matters
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September?!?!! Bastids!! I could be dead by then!
Oh, well...
<saves pennies>
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Sorry Rob, that's silly, you know it.
in excusable riddled with typos more to the point.
to test your theory we could apply it to the real world.
locallyout of the people I know with major label contracts can you point out the ones that are getting fucked over by their deals and who will be taking their contract to court to contest it.
Shayne Carter (sony?)
Bic Runga (sony)
Boh Runga
Exponents.many of them have managers who are head of rianz,
Was going to say opshop but they're on their own label.
Hayley westenra's deal is crap, that is true, but to be fair she's got quite a lot in the bargain that isn't cash.
I'm hard pushed to think of local major sign. everyone else is wise to it.
actually maybe its easier if you just list the ones you know to be upset with the contracts they signed apart from yourself
And I have been fucked over, but willingly as I knew what was going down
As sorry as I am to hear that and as much as I share your anger at the big boys using their position to maximise their benefits the two parts of that sentence can't go together.
You can't be knowingly fucked over. That's called accepting their terms of the bargain.
Its like getting pissed off that Real Groovy give you fuck all for your second hand discs and then sell them at huge mark ups. You know they do it, its part of the deal, if you don't like it explore the alternatives. Take your discs to trade me, or in your case Self distribute, find an indie, go to another label. No one offering you the terms you want? then maybe they're unrealistic.I do take your point, but I take it with a grain of non mythological salt.
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It's sad to see potential wasted.
you could always get off your arse and do better.
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a return to the days of rolling in the money bins, Scrooge McDuck style.
:)
Far be it from you to exaggerate for effect. -
Campbell Smith, chief executive of RIANZ, says: “The government acknowledges that New Zealand’s creative industries are suffering because of the impact of online piracy and it recognises that ISPs should play a key role in helping to address the problem.
“The delay required to implement the government’s decision to amend the law is obviously disappointing but that’s a price worth paying if the result is clear legislation that effectively addresses the problem.
“The recording industry worked hard with its partners in the technology sector to supplement the current version of Section 92a with a fair and transparent code for its implementation. The government remains committed to tackling unlawful file-sharing and has decided that it should mandate such a process through legislation. This means we can have a comprehensive approach that covers all players in the telecoms market.”
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:)
Far be it from you to exaggerate for effect.No, it's called knowing what I'm talking about. If you are able to spend the time, have a wander through the reported profits of the major record companies in the post CD era.
And thank heavens the world doesn't revolve around the four folks you know with major labels contracts (two of whom, coincidently, I've had discussions with over the years about their deals, which they knew were unfair, but no, I'm not going to list people, that's ridiculous). That people accept the deal they are offered, try to negotiate a little better one for a bigger purpose but still know they are being fucked is a fairly simple concept to grasp but it seems to confuse you.
You can't be knowingly fucked over. That's called accepting their terms of the bargain.
Sorry, but I don't see any logic in your answer, the two are perfectly compatible and it happens every day, especially when one party is negotiating from a position of power.
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that's ridiculous
That's called evidence to support your claim.
I'm just trying to get a handle on how big this epidemic is in my own back yard so if its as massive and all consuming as you infer it is we should be able to see that in a list of disgruntled and soon to be law suit winning artists.
Or maybe its not quite as dramatic in the home land and most people avoided the situation by going indie and being wise to the whole contract evil thing.
I don't know, its your story, Im just looking for some back up facts to see how it happened and is happening locally.
as for my list of 4 major artist, as I said, most music in nz avoids majors. The ones that are on em don't seem to be in a hurry to escape.That people accept the deal they are offered, try to negotiate a little better one for a bigger purpose but still know they are being fucked is a fairly simple concept to grasp but it seems to confuse you.
to me that's called business, and it happens this way in most industries, except other industries don't plead the poor suffering artist line, they accept the deal as what it is. take it or leave it.
when you're selling your house and someone offers you less than you want for it and there are no other buyers that's not being fucked over, that's market value. (I'm starting to sound like mark now damn it). It's not more shocking just because its rock stars involved. Its disappointing yes, but there have always been choices. I've no idea why you went into a situation knowing that you were damaging the value of your product, knowing full well there are other ways to do the whole selling cds thing. perhaps it was in fact the best course of action, if it wasn't then that does confuse me cos you're not a stupid man. you're obviously well aware of the pitfalls.
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No, it's called knowing what I'm talking about.
Scrooge mc duck isn't a real person. money bins of cash that you can dive into don't exist, (and you'd break your neck doing so) it's exaggeration for effect. It colours the whole music industry in a sheen of gold that isn't accurate for 99.99% of the industry.
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Scrooge mc duck isn't a real person. money bins of cash that you can dive into don't exist, (and you'd break your neck doing so) it's exaggeration for effect. It colours the whole music industry in a sheen of gold that isn't accurate for 99.99% of the industry.
Really? Read what I wrote, then read it again. The recording industry worldwide made a fortune in the decades after the CD was invented. It's absolutely accurate and is widely documented.
to me that's called business, and it happens this way in most industries, except other industries don't plead the poor suffering artist line, they accept the deal as what it is. take it or leave it.
Most other industries don't negotiate from a position of unfair advantage, and guess what, when they do, it is often taken to task and addressed.
And yes it's ridiculous to ask me to name names, most especially when you yourself have noted that the punitive nature of recording contracts is online, in articles and everywhere.
Once again Rob you're arguing in circles, misconstruing and just being silly. Really, this is going nowhere again.
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Really, this is going nowhere again.
Well its not going in the direction you favour but we can agree to disagree.
what I want to know is what we're going to do about our mutual problem of must have the last word.
In my defense I've not yet said I'm opting out of the discussion to come back into it again and again, but I've still got the same issues.Wanna go halves on a shrink, maybe we can reclaim valuable spare time we spend correcting people who are wrong on the internet.
I'm not living in fear of major labels, no one else has to either.
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Once again Rob you're arguing in circles, misconstruing and just being silly. Really, this is going nowhere again.
73 pages and you haven't yet taken your bat and ball and gone home?
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