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Speaker: Copyright Must Change

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  • Russell Brown,

    Just in:

    TelstraClear rejects copyright code

    This would seem to mean 92A as we know it is over and the ball is in Finlayson's court.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18961 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    __I'd be obliged if you just took my word for that.__

    Why would I want to do that when I have perfectly good personal experience to go on?

    I was merely concerned that you didn't imply I was making it up, as you've done before. Your experience as related below seems to relate to a quite different issue.

    how bout Archives offer a home for masters that are no longer being looked after by others

    My impression was that was the idea, but the government wanted agreement on practice with RIANZ, who didn't want to play.

    Maybe the RIANZ members who had masters were quite happy to look after their property all on their own in a sufficiently safe storage environment?

    I don't know the details. It was Simon Grigg who first highlighted to me the problem of degrading masters that no one was properly preserving.

    Where were archives when the EMI pressing plant were biffing masters into the cook strait?

    That was 20 years ago. Surely it's a good idea that someone makes sure it never happens again?

    I personally think NZ Archives present approach is poorly thought out. They've stomped into the playing field with less disposable budget than they had when Alexander Turnball library were buying 2 of everything. Now the national library demand under threat of fine ($5000) if you don't comply that you give them 2 of everything at your expense. Charming.

    I'm aware of your feelings about legal deposit and I've explained my view on the topic. But that's a completely different issue and Archives NZ is not the same organisation as the National Library. It preserves a lot of very important master material already, including the Treaty of Waitangi and a great deal of screen work.

    That''d be a fair solution rather than spreading notions that "RIANZ is evil and don't care bout culture"

    Come on. Stick to what I said. I was talking about specific parts of RIANZ' select committee submission, which I think are actually indefensible. I've written about this in some detail before.

    Sigh ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18961 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    that you didn't imply I was making it up

    no I don't think you make it up, i think you read it in a certain way, and you are very very negative about rianz at the moment.

    i read your comment as another log on the RIANZ burning wood pile.

    Re your comment which I think you'll agree is pretty inflammatory

    They also give the impression they'd rather see original masters rot than have Archives NZ store them.Sigh ...

    I still haven't heard clear and detailed reason for it. you said people in the public sector had said majors majors had given this impression. how what why whom. are they not capable of storing their own masters?

    I need to know what tapes and why before I can summon up the resentment required to hate rianz and love archives.
    and there's plenty of other work to be going on with before getting upset that some players won't let Archives have the remaining cards they need to complete their collectors set.

    I've visited sound archives in chch a few times and know a number of the people that work there.
    I know they're not the same people as Nat Lib but they're part of the same game and I was commenting on how that game was played.
    I see archives as a very different beast to nat lib. I don't even know if I think they should be trying to acquire masters that are still in play. Save that which needs to be saved and keep an eye on that which isn't ready to be put in a box just yet.

    preserving material is quite different from acquiring master tapes. I gave john a swag of Robbins recordings reels that came past me. don't know what was on them but I think that might have been the studio that the vauxhalls recorded at. The tapes weren't marked clearly unfortunately and it was more than I could handle to go through them. That's the sort of job I see archives as doing.

    I haven't given them any of my original recordings to preserve and won't until I'm bored with them.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Come on. Stick to what I said.

    you said

    They also give the impression they'd rather see original masters rot than have Archives NZ store them.Sigh ...

    the key term in that is "see them rot"
    I find that hard to believe, public figures could be correct but I'd like to hear those words out of RIANZ's own mouth or from a press release.
    Having met cameron recently I find it hard to believe he'd say that.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    TelstraClear rejects copyright code

    This would seem to mean 92A as we know it is over and the ball is in Finlayson's court.

    I'm holding off on the champagne till the stake has been shoved through it's heart but, on the whole it is excellent news.

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Archives NZ is not the same organisation as the National Library

    sorry Russell I did who I was referring to in the post you were commented on. Nat lib is the one who messed up the relationship with nz arts producers and entered into the fray with a reduced spending budget,

    Archives I like a lot more although there have been some very negative comments made about turning the project into a money spinner, charging like a wounded bull for access to content. (this from an inside source)

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I'm holding off on the champagne till the stake has been shoved through it's heart but, on the whole it is excellent news.

    I'd like to have seen it go through in a parallel univierse just so we could see what a complete non event it would have been in its maligned and defused state.

    That the Telecommunications Carriers Forum couldn't see their way clear to writing into the code a system for addressing the almost universally acknowledge flaw of guilt upon accusation is pathetic.

    did they even try?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    That the Telecommunications Carriers Forum couldn't see their way clear to writing into the code a system for addressing the almost universally acknowledge flaw of guilt upon accusation is pathetic.

    Was it even up to them? Interesting though that Telstra cited the displeasure amongst its customers as one of the key reasons for pulling out.

    I did it!

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7383 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Having met cameron recently I find it hard to believe he'd say that.

    That would be the same Campbell Smith that told us Bic Runga had to get a second job flipping burgers? When she didn't, she said.

    Russ covered that then, too.

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Was it even up to them?

    Better question: WHY was it even up to them?

    Interesting though that Telstra cited the displeasure amongst its customers as one of the key reasons for pulling out.

    I did it!

    Me too! ;-)

    And robbery:

    That the Telecommunications Carriers Forum couldn't see their way clear to writing into the code a system for addressing the almost universally acknowledge flaw of guilt upon accusation is pathetic.

    did they even try?

    Yes, they did, having talked to a few that have been involved. They tried very hard.

    You know, not everyone approaches these things the way you seem to...

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Campbell Smith that told us Bic Runga had to get a second job flipping burgers?

    does it say that in that article? It says 8 high profile and major artists take second jobs. big surprise in nz.
    I doubt that includes his top star, but quite possibly the people just beneath her.

    unless it says "bic runga flips burgers for a living" says campbell smith then he didn't say it did he? somebody read that into his words.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    One thing's for certain - With all the trolling going on here, my bet with David Slack on the Casino thread is looking pretty safe. Now all I have to do is get SkyCity to shut down...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8587 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    does it say that in that article? [...] unless it says "bic runga flips burgers for a living" says campbell smith then he didn't say it did he?

    Does not follow.

    See here:

    In 2007 the head of RIANZ Campbell Smith allegedly told a Parliamentary Commerce Select Committee that Bic Runga had to take a second job flipping burgers due to illegal downloads. Bic Runga responded denying the claims "Got home to some fuss in the media about how most New Zealand musicians have to have day jobs. Now that's never been news! But you know, I haven't flipped burgers since i was 15"

    My thoughts at the time were that considering Bic has had CD sales of at least 21x platinum, it would say a lot more about Smith himself, than about downloaders, if it were true (which, apparantly, it wasn't.)

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    In 2007 the head of RIANZ Campbell Smith allegedly told a Parliamentary Commerce Select Committee that Bic Runga had to take a second job flipping burgers due to illegal downloads.

    The key word there is allegedly.
    If you know bic then you would know that she worked in music retail well into her career. She worked in the colombo street CD store up until moving to auckland and then worked in a cd store in auckland for a long time.
    If she took a second job it would not be flipping burgers.
    Seeing as how she's a mum now I would hope she was at home watching soap operas on the dpb.
    The article linked to by mark said 8 of his 11 acts had day jobs, not specifically bic.
    Allegedly doesn't do it for me and context also is important before I can get on the "campbell smith is a dirty sticking liar" band wagon, but don't let me spoil the fun.

    and to poop the party just a little more here are some links to articles and a Q&A with Campbell on 92a.

    92a Q&A

    Herald campbell smith article

    load the muskets

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Pretty much.

    Registrant Contact Name Phonographic Performance New Zealand Limited
    Registrant Contact Address1 Private Bag 78850
    Registrant Contact Address2 Grey Lynn
    Registrant Contact City Auckland
    Registrant Contact Postalcode 1245
    Registrant Contact Country NZ (NEW ZEALAND)
    Registrant Contact Phone +64 9 3605085
    Registrant Contact Fax +64 9 3605086
    Registrant Contact Email penny@rianz.org.nz

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    Doesn't sound like I would have... I'm not a professional wet blanket

    it was more a comment about the lack of tech savvy being displayed, than a serious comment about you Mr Tiso...(a little light-hearted trolling perhaps). The one participant who did know what twitter is, seemed to think the possession of this fact made him worthy of a large prize. (it was almost like something out of Blackadder with Melchett & Darling)

    I quite like that the discussion focussed on single, tangible issue for a moment, being the archival issue hidden between Robbery & Russell's notes to each other.

    Am not sure that leaving the decision up to Mr Finalyson is worthy of celebrating, given that he's indicated his intention to be even more prescriptive....but that might have been tough talk to focus the minds of the TCF.

    Osterreich • Since Nov 2006 • 460 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    However, we can hold out some hope that Mr Finlayson's solution will still have to pass through parliamentary process.

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Heck - that took ages to get through. Seeing days of posts in one go I noticed we sometimes conflate these players (which in turn can lead to pointless arguments): creator, owner, distributor, marketer, consumer.

    Can I briefly observe that the digital divide disproportionately affects disabled people as well as the poor (often a big overlap).

    And you guys don't seem to have been following the Casino thread where some of the same links were posted days ago.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16750 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    Can I briefly observe that the digital divide disproportionately affects disabled people as well as the poor (often a big overlap).

    Yeah this had struck me as the one exception. Also had identified/assumed that prisoners don't have access. but I think they're a special case. Perhaps we should ask Tim Selwyn his views?

    Institutionalized bias is bad, except where it's promoting access rather than creating barriers.

    Osterreich • Since Nov 2006 • 460 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    sorry ommitted a word.

    Institutionalized bias is bad, except where it's duly promoting access rather than creating barriers. (but I guess even that is subjective & hotly debate...I hope my intent is clear)

    Osterreich • Since Nov 2006 • 460 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Campbell didn't specifically say Bic Runga was reduced to flipping burgers. But he did say to the select committee that eight of his 11 artists had had to get second jobs, and then went on to mention Bic by name.

    It wasn't a smart thing to do, and she wasn't very happy about it. She said on her MySpace:

    Got home to some fuss in the media about how most New Zealand musicians have to have day jobs. Now that's never been news! But you know, I haven't flipped burgers since i was 15 (actually, I was very good at it, I once made up an order of 21 burgers in one go.) Thanks for your concern, but most musicians are just happy to be musicians.

    I tried to put it into context here. The same post also refers to the more outrageous parts of the RIANZ submission that robbery was doubting me on:

    But if that part's silly, the parts which seek to tightly restrict the ability of libraries and archives to digitise collections, and even to make works available for viewing on-site border on the offensive.

    Short version: libraries should not be able to format shift sound recordings for archival purposes. And, further, "it is submitted that libraries and archives should not be permitted to make sound recordings or films available both in terminals on-site or terminals off-site and that such rights are not necessary for their proper functioning and operation."

    But this is actually the basis on which organisations such as the New Zealand Film Archive operate. No one goes to the Film Archive and sits at a terminal to view a work for the sheer entertainment value of it. But people ought to be able to see those works (most of which are not available any other way) for study or information purposes. There is a clear public good in them being able to do so.

    I understand that the music companies are obliged to defend their copyrights, which are the basis of their business. They are going to have particular views on copy-protection and format-shifting. Generally speaking, I don't approve of illicit copying and downloading of music: which isn't to say I've never done it, but I try not to, and I spend money every week on legitimate music downloads. But parts of this submission go beyond the purview of copyright law, and, indeed, beyond the legitimate interests of music companies.

    Rob, I wasn't making it up: I studied this material, and parts of the RIANZ submission were genuinely indefensible. Sadly, they kept on making the same mistakes.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18961 posts Report Reply

  • jon_knox,

    The other things that were apparent to me after attending last night's lecture, is that the discussions that have taken place in these threads are both more grounded in the real world (as opppsed to theory) and ahead of academic thinking...well at least ahead of the lecture circuit's portrayal of academic thinking.

    I thought both those things remarkable and a big tick in the box that says we're not completely wasting our time....even if it feels a bit that way from time to time.

    Osterreich • Since Nov 2006 • 460 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And, further, "it is submitted that libraries and archives should not be permitted to make sound recordings or films available both in terminals on-site or terminals off-site and that such rights are not necessary for their proper functioning and operation."

    This was my favourite part. It equates to saying that libraries should be allowed to keep books but never let anyone read them.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18961 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    I think that's the viewpoint of people who never use libraries, and think it's just a place where you store books.

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

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