Damn – beaten to it; so I withdraw in favour of the preceding addition. NB Emma: refreshing the page deletes unsaved comment text, so doesn’t help much in avoiding this kind of thing.
I'd have let both additions stand, as they weren't actually contradictory. And sorry, I have a browser extension that saves all text typed into a text box. C/p before you refresh.
And if anyone suggests the LINE is an artificial contruct….that, say a 15 year old CAN give consent to sexual activity…..then where would YOU put the LINE?
There's a long and thoughtful discussion about problems with the age of consent here. I don't really want to get into it on this thread, because this thread is about rape. The case we've been discussing would be rape regardless of the age of the victim.
In the case described by Abbie….the evidence was there. The victim was under the age of consent….end of story….surely?
Just to note, 12-15, it's unlawful sexual connection. For a rape charge, which carries higher penalties, you have to prove he didn't have consent.
Is there anything males need to be taught, other than to just Stop?
Yes, and we’ve been through this all before. They need to learn what rape actually looks like. They need to learn to call their mates out when they keep pushing after a ‘no’. They need to learn that no-one is entitled to sex, that women should be able to wear any damn thing they want, that there are very good reasons why women don’t lay rape complaints.
And… look, I don’t want to be offending anyone, and I hope that it’s obvious that I’m not talking about the PAS guys who constructively engage on these threads. You guys are fucking awesome and giving us hope for humanity and all that crap.
But there are some guys here who aren’t, and this is what I want to say to them.
Women like me, like Katrina, like Lucy, we’re right here, in this community with you. We’re sitting right here, talking about what’s happened to us. When it comes to rape and rape culture, we are your experts. We are. On these topics, we’re your Ngs and Edgelers. Give us the same respect for our knowledge as you would them in their areas of expertise.
Rosemary, I know you didn’t intend it that way, but I found your comment hugely distressing, and it looks like I’m not the only one.
The last time I was raped, which was not a million years ago, it was in my own bed, by my then-partner. Like so many people, I froze up entirely during the experience, and didn’t move or speak until it was over. There was only one person I told about it, partly because “didn’t fight back” becomes part of the “not real rape” narrative. Nonetheless, I am not in the least ashamed of how I reacted.
“Self-defence” is very focused on the ‘attack by a total stranger walking down a dark street’ rape myth narrative. Learning self-defence will not, as I said, keep you safe from being raped.
I will be honest; I don’t fully understand the definition of rape culture. From little I understand is that it isn’t just a culture perpetuated by men.
One of the most useful phrases I’ve run across to describe it is “You’re soaking in it.” It’s such a pervasive and omnipresent thing that it’s very easy to not see it until people start pointing it out. And women are soaking in it just as much as men are.
These myths about what “real” rape looks like, and how “real” rape victims would behave also get inside the heads of women. Women will deny their own rapes, if they sufficiently deviate from that picture.
There’s also an element of buying into magic thinking: if I don’t dress like that, if I don’t walk down dark streets by myself, if I hold my car keys a certain way, that will somehow ensure that I don’t get raped. And if that other woman didn’t do that, if she didn’t perform the right rituals, then it must be partially her fault. To admit that it’s not her fault, that there’s nothing you can do, is to admit that you can’t protect yourself, and that’s terrifying.
I understand. What would you advise?
Things that are entirely focused on her. Counselling, absolutely. Her home being a safe place, where she could talk about it, or not talk about it and watch a bajillion episodes of Castle instead.
If, for her recovery, it was important to her to lay a complaint, we'd do that, but with a firm grasp of the realities that most complaints don't go to trial, and of those that do, the conviction rate is 13%. And absolutely not "If you don't lay a complaint, he'll do it again," which is "If he rapes somebody else, and he probably will, it's your fault." I have seen people do this with the absolute best of intentions, and Please Stop.
What I see reassures me that letting a rapist escape charges was the best thing for me.
This. This was also the decision I made, again on multiple occasions, that I would be putting myself through hell for absolutely nothing. And would I advise my daughter to lay a rape complaint with police, no matter what the circumstances? No. I would not, and it breaks my heart to say that.
(I will happily cover moderation on this thread for Russell while he's out, and I will have a very low Bullshit Threshold for it.)
That sort of clears that up. But wow, I did not realize you had that world view.
Think of the greatest trauma you have experienced. Think of people who have experienced similar things, and people who haven’t. The common experience binds us together in a way, and sets us apart from people who haven’t, no matter how good their intentions or how strong their empathy and their attempts to understand. It’s not something we chose, or something we cling to, it’s just the way things are.
both the writers are from Wellington.
I was extending the existing metaphor. From outside, for outside.