Posts by chris
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It’s even like he was answering a binary question. Oh wait, he was.
It was a rhetorical appeal to the right hemisphere.
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Hard News: Libya, in reply to Neil Morrison,
But don’t let the opinions of others overwhelm your concern for the well being of the Nth Koreans. I’m sure no-one who is concerned with Libya would want to discourage you from the considerable effort you clearly put into that cause.
But I’m not very in touch with the pro-democracy movement in Nth Korea. Would you be able to give us some information about your activities in that area. It must be quite a challenge.
Challanged to work out what you're talking about for sure. What was that? I never mentioned North Korea, readdress to Glennd please Neil.
Is a no fly zone and the bombing of his key assets really the best way to quell his violence?
yes it is.
While initial Western airstrikes hit Libyan air defences and an armoured column in the east, Gaddafi's tanks kept up their shelling of Misrata in the west, killing dozens there this week.
Residents said a "massacre" was taking place with tank and artillery fire destroying buildings and snipers picking off people indiscriminately. Doctors were operating in hospital corridors and having to turn some of the wounded away.
It's like you're brain's hardwired to a binary:
1 Military intervention
0 No Military intervention -
The situation is similar to the decision about how to deal with a violent individual or a rioting crowd. In one case you just take them down and arrest them. In the other, it’s considerably different and much more care is required.
I can handle that comparison Ben, but has this violent individual been conspired against or provoked? Has his violence not previously been tolerated as he's increasingly been regarded as a friend and ally? Is a no fly zone and the bombing of his key assets really the best way to quell his violence?
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Hard News: Libya, in reply to Steve Parks,
I was getting a little antsy.
You still seem to be.
You can't deny that was one hell of a cricket match.
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Hard News: Libya, in reply to glennd,
Yeah. When I read back over this:
If it all works out, the US can say “Hey, we played our part!”
If it doesn’t work out, the US can say “well hey, we played our part.”I'm disillusioned by the chilling reality that there is still a very widespread western perception that this is the kind of audience the US deserves.
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It’s unlikely there would even be a thread,
It’s like the whole build up to this action has escaped you. If the UN were still arguing about whether to intervene, whilst Gaddafi was using his military forces to kill civilians, there would quite likely be a thread.
On the contrary, I was hanging out for a good week at least for a thread to discuss this, when just that was happening. Given that this is the only place I’d ever comment, I was getting a little antsy. It’d be nice if there was a thread on the Arab situation in general at the moment, as the military killing of civilian protesters is happening all over the arab world right now, I’ve mentioned Yemen, Bahrain, it’s not been picked up.
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Hard News: Libya, in reply to BenWilson,
Yes, he’s very keen to exhaust all avenues, whilst simultaneously finishing off his internal opposition. There was never any attempt to exhaust all avenues of peaceful negotiation with them.
Certainly Ben, and the timing is pivotal, for had he not been leading his country in this way longer than we've both been alive, I'd see it as more than the opening of another front in this cynically promoted, very contrived, war (against nationalism) for democracy.
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Hard News: Libya, in reply to Don Christie,
I wonder what this thread would be like if the international community was still squabbling about whether to intervene whilst Gaddafi had regained control of Libyan cities and was still conducting house to house murders.
It's unlikely there would even be a thread, just as this isn't one for any of the numerous nations whose governments are currently massacring civilians.
Exhausting all avenues takes time, as many bloody dictators know. Whilst the exhaustion takes place they just carry on with their mass murder.
Obviously there is a balance to be struck, but surely Gaddafi had taken this issue past the point of no return?
That's surely rhetorical Don. Certainly someone is taking this issue past the point of no return, but whether or not it's Gaddafi is a matter of personal bias. Having lived both within and outside the sphere of western influence I can understand the conceptual foundations upon which such conclusions can be reached, These assumptions of moral superiority become an habitual thing, and that foreign powers are disposed to influencing the outcomes of civil wars is a given (either publicly or not). But as we could gauge from the Iraq experience: If this becomes another protracted struggle, the death toll will most likely greatly outweigh what it would have been had there been no intervention.
After a more than four-hour meeting in the Mauritanian capital, the body also asked Libyan authorities to ensure "humanitarian aid to those in need," as well as the "protection of foreigners, including African expatriates living in Libya."
It underscored the need for "necessary political reforms to eliminate the causes of the present crisis" but at the same time called for "restraint" from the international community to avoid "serious humanitarian consequences."
But if you like, Gaddafi took the issue past the point of no return, Nato are at the helm now and so goes another Arab country down the toilet.
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Hard News: Libya, in reply to Neil Morrison,
From the resolution Russell posted, I'd latch onto this as indicative of how I'd prefer to see the situation handled:
Security Council President LI BAODONG (China), speaking in his national capacity, said that the continuing deterioration of the situation in Libya was of great concern to China. However, the United Nations Charter must be respected and the current crisis must be ended through peaceful means. China was always against the use of force when those means were not exhausted. His delegation had asked specific questions that failed to be answered and, therefore, it had serious difficulty with the resolution. It had not blocked the passage of the resolution, however, because it attached great importance to the requests of the Arab League and the African Union. At the same time, he supported the efforts of the Secretary-General’s Envoy to resolve the situation by peaceful means
Clinton's admission that there is ongoing dialogue with The Colonel implies that all avenues were not exhausted before bombs were dropped.
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Sorry about the length of the speech there Russell, Andin, people, I just found its paragraph to paragraph hypocrisy so compelling over a late night binge, I am a little disappointed you stripped Islander's quote off the bottom though.
Oh Chris
To think that I wasted mental effort arguing with you.
Bigger fool me.Firstly Pete, why would you even bother arguing with a stubborn tool like me?
Secondly, exactly how much mental effort was required to post that ? I'm honoured at your and anyone else's engagement of me on this topic, my angle on it is pretty blunt, and I'll happily step aside if you can give me some more solid evidence or insight to lead me to believe that the UNSC is anything more than a malignant side effect of the UN's higher principals, but unsourced Biden heresay and casual name dropping of social networking services doesn't convince me that the UNSC has the world's best interests at heart.Quite. Although firing on civilian demonstrators from warplanes and helicopters – Libya’s response to the pro-democracy protests a month ago – seems objectively an order of magnitude worse.
Yesterday I noticed numerous reports, almost all from entirely spurious or questionable sources, that according to the Russian military, this never happened. The internet is just nuts.
But Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, where's it gonna end?