Hard News: A Full Sense of Nationhood
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The rule of thumb as I have heard it is that anything which causes the reader to focus on the writing rather than the message weakens the writing.
I wish I'd said it as simply as this.
Good writing might go a lot further than this, of course, but if you've got only a handful of pages to convey a complex matter to a busy and possibly inexpert reader; simple, clear, consistent and grammatical writing is essential.
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requires the use of macrons or you can get away with umlauts or nothing at all
I say you can only get away with umlauts if you're talking about a band. For umlauts, as we all know, signify Intensity of Rocking.
(I also say of course written formal Maori requires the use of macrons. Is anyone arguing with French's need to use the cedilla? No? Well then.)
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You introduced it to the conversation, both times, is all I'm sayin'. :)
It is my point, yes. It was in response to some pedantry, though. And it only turned into an argument when someone else wanted to argue about it. Or some three, more like.
Paul, I don't think we're in disagreement. My own job involve endless pedantry, because a compiler rejects anything that is the slightest bit wrong syntactically with "Syntax error in Line x". But when I'm designing the algorithm, or writing instructions on how to use it, or proving an idea to senior management, or writing a specification document, I'm always annoyed when their major concern is about how I used American English instead of Canadian, or how I split an infinitive somewhere. So I take care to proofread myself.
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If you're responsible for legislation, regulation or have access to tax dollars to run this or that program, getting it right, doing exactly what you intend to do and not just chucking ideas up and hoping is why I we need precision and accuracy... which includes a fair whack of pendantry (in formal briefs which are only part of the process of course).
O god yes! As someone who has to read/interpret that legislation & apply it to real life I infinitely prefer not to find myself thinking 'wtf?'. This happens more frequently than you'd expect.
Having said that, my own punctuation is frequently over-comma'd and each attempt to learn the correct usage leads me further into confusion. Somehow I was better at it when it was purely instinctual.
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I'm always annoyed when their major concern is about how I used American English instead of Canadian, or how I split an infinitive somewhere. So I take care to proofread myself.
Yeah, that'd give me the shits (as we say o'here in strayan English) too.
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Is anyone arguing with French's need to use the cedilla? No?
They could try, but the Académie française employs a cadre of burly, heavy-knuckled linguists named Vito And Yuri who are very good at pointing out the fallacy of that particular argument.
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I tend to listen even to the pedants though, as occasionally they will pinpoint a mistake that might stop well-intentioned readers from making sense of what's on the page/screen
Me too. I listen to everyone who makes the effort to speak to me. When the pedantry does actually pinpoint ambiguity (or even total error) then it's definitely helpful. Got no problem with that. There's just an awful lot of it which isn't.
Having said that, my own punctuation is frequently over-comma'd and each attempt to learn the correct usage leads me further into confusion. Somehow I was better at it when it was purely instinctual.
Yup, when you were focused on conveying the ideas, rather than the nagging comma-Nazi voice in your head? I'll never forget a teacher at intermediate school wasting about 3 hours of my life teaching me about apostrophes, by tearing up the work and making me write it again. She was actually totally wrong about apostrophes, but that wasn't going to stop her making her point about how important they are. Over, and over and over. Until the wrong way was totally drummed into my head.
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Yup, when you were focused on conveying the ideas, rather than the nagging comma-Nazi voice in your head?
A good point. I used to help people with public speaking a bit and my best advice was that you know you're doing well when you're saying what your thinking, not thinking what your saying...
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I'll never forget a teacher at intermediate school wasting about 3 hours of my life teaching me about apostrophes, by tearing up the work and making me write it again.
That sounds like a formative experience, Ben.
but the Académie française employs a cadre of burly, heavy-knuckled linguists named Vito And Yuri
Do you know what they call a cedilla in France?
...
FRENCH, MOTHERFUCKER! CAN YOU SPELL IT!
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It was also an excellent strategy to mess people up in debates by interjecting, demanding clarity on some pissly language point. Really good way to annoy people, if that is your intention.
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That sounds like a formative experience, Ben.
It was. It taught me that some people who have power over you are much more interested in your humiliation than anything else, and picking on arbitrary rules of language is an excellent way of achieving that.
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I'll never forget a teacher at intermediate school wasting about 3 hours of my life teaching me about apostrophes, by tearing up the work and making me write it again. She was actually totally wrong about apostrophes, but that wasn't going to stop her making her point about how important they are. Over, and over and over. Until the wrong way was totally drummed into my head.
I do recall having to correct teachers on this kind of thing. It rarely went down well. My Standard 4 teacher in Greymouth, an elderly chap who rejoiced in the name Ces Murley, noted "can be too clever for his own good" on my school report.
I had pointed out that "protein" was a further exception to the rule "When the sound is "E", I before E, except after C", after he told us that "seize" was the only one.
But Ces *did* teach us a lot of old-fashioned principles of grammar that I fear my big-city peers never got. I've always been grateful for that.
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A good point. I used to help people with public speaking a bit and my best advice was that you know you're doing well when you're saying what your thinking, not thinking what your saying...
Ahem. You're saying ...
In further pedantry, from NZPA via the Herald:
In a caravan parked on the property, with a power cord running to it from the house, 36 cannabis plants were growing in individual 20 litre buckets.
They were about 60m tall, healthy, "meticulously cared for" and developing buds, the court was told.
They're growin' 'em BIG in Tauranga!
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It taught me that some people who have power over you are much more interested in your humiliation than anything else, and picking on arbitrary rules of language is an excellent way of achieving that.
Yeah, so don't bother using macrons when writing in Maori. That will show them!
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They were about 60m tall, healthy, "meticulously cared for" and developing buds, the court was told.
I wonder how they spotted them.
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And the caravans too. Some sort of 15 story mobile road hazard for users.
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3410,
Ben, I don't want to comment on it any further except to say that my lack of comment should not be taken to mean that I accept what you're saying. :)
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Ahem. You're saying ...
Pinged! I never edit blog comments, well almost never, which was why I was sympathetic to Ben in the first instance.
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It rarely went down well.
I'll bet. The apostrophe-Nazi seemed to think the mantra "The apostrophe comes after the name of the owner or owners" conveyed all that needed to be known. When I pointed out that it is also used for contractions, she repeated the mantra, tore the work up, and cast it in the bin with what seemed like malicious pleasure.
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BenWilson:
I don't want to pile on here, but I've got a piece of correspondence from the Department of Inland Revenue that is (pardon my French) complete fucking gibberish.
Considering that this does involve my tax bill, and my relations with a Government department that can impose large penalties if I don't get it right, could I put up this modest proposal:
It's not my job to make assumptions about what you probably -- even almost near-certainly -- mean to say. It's your responsibility to communicate clearly and effectively exactly how I clear my bill. If whoever generated this cack-handed prose is functionally illiterate in English, I shudder to think what is going out under IRD letterhead in other languages or to non-native English speakers.
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3410 I would never make that mistake.
Pinged! I never edit blog comments, well almost never, which was why I was sympathetic to Ben in the first instance.
Heh, I recall Russell getting bitter about getting pinged last week for some typos. I was sympathetic to him in that instance. It was a perfect example of someone being a dick about something to annoy the writer and avoid the content.
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pardon my French
Vito, Yury: seize him.
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BTW, when I say "complete fucking gibberish" I don't mean "full of civil service jargon or page long citations from legislation". I mean "who knew the IRD had outsourced their word processing to an Dadaist ESL school?"
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I don't want to pile on here
I want you to, though. No pile is complete without you.
I've said it a dozen times now, if the pedantry is about actual ambiguity or even conveying the opposite meaning, then getting picky is fine. You're well within your rights to demand explanation of what is unclear in the bill, and suggest improving the form (if it was a form) to help others who will probably struggle with it. But they're not going to let you off the bill because of missing macrons.
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But they're not going to let you off the bill because of missing macrons.
This is driving me crazy. Stephen, where's that cartoon you look at when you feel like chewing the keyboard? I could use it just about now.
MISSING MACRONS AREN'T A SPELLING MISTAKE. It's a decision you've made not to be bothered about a linguistic difference that you are not capable of appreciating. It shows lack of cultural awareness and respect to say that we should just ignore the damn things in the name of ease of communication.
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