Hard News: How much speech does it take?
554 Responses
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Joe Wylie, in reply to
Are there not laws against using electronic media (phones, emails, etc), or even normal mail, to intimidate or threaten others?
I seem to recall Barry Crump in one of his books claiming to have sent a thinly veiled death threat to an uncooperative civil servant. He received a visit from a policeman, who explained that such things were specifically prohibited under rules governing the use of Her Majesty's mails.
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anyone to hazard a guess when we can start suppressing hate speech again?
Germany, for instance, has some of the strongest laws on such speech in the democratic world. It doesn't stop the neo-Nazis.
Also, isn't it better that such people identify themselves so they can be watched appropriately?
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Rich Lock, in reply to
I'd argue (if I may)
Well, that's why we're here, right?
To paraphrase Monty Python, if I wanted abuse, I'd go next door.
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Che Tibby, in reply to
that assumes that watching is done.
i guess the uruwera 16 could count as an example of surveillance converting to action.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
I just got a letter saying “congratulations, you’re a citizen now”, which struck me as a fundamentally more British way of doing things.
Indeed. There's no need for any unnecessary fuss and flag-waving, is there?
Yes, but there is a stupidly large amount of weirdly symbolic rituals deeply embedded in public life in the UK, which does seem to run counter to that stiff-upper-lippedness. Suppress the crazy, and it squirts out somewhere else. Royal wedding, anyone?
Possibly related as well: it was for decades, and to an extent still is, considered extremely bad form in liberal-lefty-type circules to wear or display a 'cross of st george' flag. To display one was to effectively send the message that you were a neo-nazi racist thug.
I do wonder what sort of effect that opprobium has on the psyche of people who aren't really inclined that way, but who do identify strongly with 'being english' and wanting to be proud of themselves.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
Stoopid test if you ask me :)
Yes, but the fact there is a test at all is indicative of a lot of other things that are going on in relation to (UK) immigration, multiculturalism, trying to define national characteristics, etc, etc.
The fact the test was/is useless was pretty much a given from the start: it's probably impossible to actually design an effective one.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
I do wonder how deep-seated the biological/psychlogical urge to ‘other’ those who are different is.
No idea.
A study from last year suggests that this is related to oxytocin, often called the "love hormone" because it was previously known for the role it plays in bonding (eg sex, childbirth). More discussion here.
It does, to a greater or lesser degree, seem to be quite deep-rooted in the human psyche. How do we deal with that?
If love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin (or hormone) then it'll be pretty hard to deal with.Nice. Thanks for that.
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There is a school of thought (which I semi-agree with) that for a moderm-western-world rite of passage to be meaningful, it has to be designed by the participant.
I can think of several that I did for myself, but I only really recognise them as such with the benefit of several years, and sometimes several decades-worth, of hindsight.
PS - apologies for the multi-post blurt: I only get limited windows of opportunity to read and post per 24-hour cycle.
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DCBCauchi, in reply to
anyone to hazard a guess when we can start suppressing hate speech again?
Germany, for instance, has some of the strongest laws on such speech in the democratic world. It doesn’t stop the neo-Nazis.
No it doesn't. And it's a silly way to try.
And a child-murdering maniac quoting right-wing blogs doesn't reflect or represent those blogs, in the same way that the Weathermen didn't represent the larger SDS movement they explicitly came from.
In a free, open, and tolerant society, people have the right to hold and express whatever beliefs they like. There is no fucking test. That is what being a free, open, and tolerant society means.
Keep your thought crimes to yourself.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
I do wonder what sort of effect that opprobium has on the psyche of people who aren’t really inclined that way, but who do identify strongly with ‘being english’ and wanting to be proud of themselves.
Proud of an accident of birth? and who are the English if not a product of centuries of conquest and pillage annat?
I have to admit to being rather amused when a friend of mine barged through a crowd crying "let me through, I'm British" and people stepped out of his way, well you would, wouldn't you ;-)
To me, being called English puts me in mind of Mad Dogs.
Also of note, I found it rather pointless having to swear allegiance to the Queen to gain NZ citizenship, me being a Pom an' all. -
Sacha, in reply to
people have the right to hold and express whatever beliefs they like
not without constraint - for instance, broadcasting regulations (as discussed previously)
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Alex Coleman, in reply to
And a child-murdering maniac quoting right-wing blogs doesn’t reflect or represent those blogs, in the same way that the Weathermen didn’t represent the larger SDS movement they explicitly came from.
In the same way that AQ don't represent Muslims. Which is a point the counterjihad movement explicitly reject. And, when you tell them to keep their thoughtcrimes to themselves, one transmogrifies into a cultural marxist.
I respect their freedom of speech, but it's not free in the sense of being without cost.
And I don't think it is at all unfair to call them to account for the contradictions between how they teat Islam, and how some of them are asking for nuance at the moment.
Though this guy isn't asking for nuance:
http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-left-shouldnt-gloat-about-anders.html
Where does that fit in to things? Legitimate free speech? I'm ok with that, but I'm still disturbed by it.
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webweaver, in reply to
Also of note, I found it rather pointless having to swear allegiance to the Queen to gain NZ citizenship, me being a Pom an’ all.
Hehe. Me too. As I think I have mentioned before, I mumbletymumbled my way through that bit so I didn't have to say it. Not believing in all that monarchy stuff meself.
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And Mai Chen wades idiotically into the argument, conflating free speech with a right to broadcast without consequence or constraint.
Breivik's lawyer said of his client: "He had been politically active and found out himself that he did not succeed with usual political tools and so resorted to violence."
People will always have differing views on immigration, and on race issues, but that is why debates like those between Don Brash and Hone Harawira on TV1's current affairs programme Close Up are important. It is also why Peter Ansell should be able to say in newspaper advertisements that he is "fed up with the Maorification of everything", whether this is true or not.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
Not believing in all that monarchy stuff meself.
I'd rather swear allegiance to Craig ;-)
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mark taslov, in reply to
PS – apologies for the multi-post blurt: I only get limited windows of opportunity to read and post per 24-hour cycle.
When’s the parole hearing?
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
When’s your parole hearing?
You're out then?
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Che Tibby, in reply to
same. i'd take "a harawira" at any opportunity.
the royals can just go GTFO
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
the royals can just go GTFO
You Sentimentalist you.
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Che Tibby, in reply to
i was frightened by a womans weekly as a child.
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Islander, in reply to
+1
webweaver...I did the mumbletymumble bit when I joined the PO -in 1969, you were *required to swear an oath of allegiance to be a postie*...
anyone know whether the NZPO still requires this? Other government departments?
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mark taslov, in reply to
You’re out then?
Sure, but still serving time.
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Geoff Lealand, in reply to
you were *required to swear an oath of allegiance to be a postie*...
You were a postie too? Such a noble profession--and it leaves the afternoons free for other things.
When I first joined the BCNZ, I had to sign the Offical Secrets Act--not that they were going to let a callow youth anywhere near secrets.
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uroskin, in reply to
one denizen warn another that I was an “extreme Marxist” and should not be listened to
Bomber Bradbury called you a middle class fog horn, so take your pick which one is the more insulting.
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Greg Dawson, in reply to
anyone know whether the NZPO still requires this?
Didn't in 2001.
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