Hard News: So long, and thanks for all the fish ...
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If I remember correctly, Labour lost the last election mainly because many left-leaning voters thought National was bound to win and so didn't bother to vote.
Labour needs someone who will inspire their voters to turn up. Really, is it so hard?
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
And maybe we can stop regarding Tom as the sine qua non of the Labour party, eh, mon vieux?
Fine, but I wish he was the only person I've heard this particular homophobic dog-whistle from. Not that I actually get a vote either way, but I actually give Labour-voting Pasifika a bit more credit and can't find much evidence the homosexual mafia that spoiled the last two elections for Labour exist anywhere except Su'a William Sio's fervid imagination.
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Hebe, in reply to
are we applying the same rules to the men?
I certainly am. Andrew Little, to be fair, has many years in the political game and around Wellington, so I think that counts for a lot in experience terms. But he would still need to have sat around a Cabinet table before becoming PM. From what I know of the Wellington scene, putting Ardern in that position would be setting her up to fail. In a term or two maybe she will be get there.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
She is not far enough along in experience to handle leading a main party, and potentially being Prime Minister.
But David Lange was? He became leader of the Opposition during his second full term as an MP, and was Prime Minister six months later. I’m not sure it would be entirely fair to blame all the problems of the Fourth Labour Government on his inexperience.
Also pertinent, I’ve got Kerry-Ann Walsh’s ‘The Stalking of Julia Gillard’ on the nightstand. (Spoiler: Don’t bet the farm that Walsh would hit the brakes if Kevin Rudd walked in front of her car.) Twelve years as an MP, a raft of ministerial posts, and terms as the deputy leader of her party and deputy Prime Minister didn’t mean shit when a large chunk of her own party and the media decided to turn her into a human knife block.
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Also, Sacha, I think it is totally legitimate, and in fact really important, to discuss the ways in which discrimination has affected political leadership when we're looking at the leadership of a party that's pretty keen on fighting that discrimination. It's not the only issue to look at, but it's a pretty important one, especially if we want to avoid replicating that discrimination.
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Who the party chooses to replace him will clearly be important. Just as important will be his caucus’s ability to demonstrate common purpose from here on.
No, it's actually going to be more important. Diamonds are a girl's best friend, but the best friend any politician can have is a battle where the other side are too busy knifing each other to put up any kind of coherent resistance. Just ask Messers Abbot and Rudd, who, in their own ways, are probably missing having Julia Gillard as a distraction from their own various vacuities.
In a way, I don't actually give a shit who the next leader of the opposition is. But everyone should care a lot about whether whoever it is manages to refocus the Opposition on doing their job -- which is not to keep the Press Gallery amused, but at least try to act as a meaningful check and balance on the government. Whatever else you say about Helen Clark, at least she manage to pull off that magic trick with considerable flair.
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Sacha, in reply to
As long as you are also discussing what it takes to win, that's fine. However continuing the last half decade of indulgently looking inwards is likely to produce more of the same results. A year at most from an election, we all deserve better than that fate.
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TracyMac, in reply to
That's right. Also, I thought your description of the target of your ire was pretty precise, actually.
More precise than those who purport to speak for the "blue collar" masses and yet blow that old whistle.
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So, does anyone know who’s in the ABC club? Or rather, since I’m sure someone does, can anyone tell me?
I've tried googling, and that suggests Trevor Mallard is ABC, but who else?
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Stephen Judd, in reply to
indulgently looking inwards
Profoundly irritating, Sacha.
Labour is no more a monolith than any other party. The conflicts over the 80s are still playing out. People in the party are in it to do stuff, not merely to provide an alternative to the other crew, and so politics happens inside the border of the party as well as outside.
What’s indulgent is standing on the sidelines, sanctimoniously carping at the way people do work you want done but can’t be arsed doing yourself.
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Jacinda Ardern for leader, Phil Twyford for deputy. Give the Labour party the really big shake up it needs. It's going to take a lot to stop me from drifting to Greens next election.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
What’s indulgent is standing on the sidelines, sanctimoniously carping at the way people do work you want done but can’t be arsed doing yourself.
Woah, that was snippy to an unwarranted degree wasn't it? I think Sasha and I get that we don't have a direct vote in the Labour leadership (or National or any other political party) but here's an idea. If Labour does win the next election, we all have to accept whoever you select as our head of government. And we do actually get to express a view on that.
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Geoff Lealand, in reply to
a large chunk of her own party and the media decided to turn her into a human knife block
Nice turn of phrase, Craig!
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I wouldn't have given two cents for any of the shiny assed careerists who seem to be the staple of most seats in the opposition held by NZ Labour Party except that there is one fella who showed himself to be rather different - not a cringing neo-liberal deregulator, last time Labour was in power.
When David Cunliffe was selected as Minister of Telecommunications I was skeptical about the result.
For most of the Clark government's stewardship Telecom had been allowed to abuse their monopoly running roughshod over any other more innovative start-up by using its control of the copper network to simultaneously rig prices and stranglehold traffic manage the opposition.
It occurred to me Cunliffe had been given the job because his smarmy grin would deflect any attempt to fix our network in favour of propping the Telecom monolith.
Imagine my surprise when he used his 'communication skills' to dish it out to Telecom execs and the telecommunications regulators whose strings those Telecom execs pulled.
I don't much like blokes who are just 'too good' at getting the message out, my experience of them has usually been that their only real message is 'See me I am the only thing that matters', but Cunliffe appears to be a bloke who uses those qualities to improve the situation for others as much as himself.
He got into hot water with the old guard of the Labour caucus for speaking out on issues they had decided back in the Lange Douglas years- except Cunliffe was saying they may not have made the correct decision, that there is a place in a small economy for regulation - adjustment to prevent dominance & abuse by the fellas who have grabbed all the cash.
Good on him for saying so and if Labour pick him as their leader I will vote for them next year - for the first time since the 80's.
I'm cynical enough to appreciate it could all go very wrong, that Cunliffe could turn out to be nothing more than a more highly skilled player than the rest of the shiny asses, but since I already know the others are all hat and no head what is there to lose? -
Stephen Judd, in reply to
we all have to accept
Then perhaps you could accept that "Labour", like "National", isn't one person and that attributing a single emotional state to a large group is both insulting and wrong.
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Robertson/Ardern, with Cunliffe as shadow finance spokesperson.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
Then perhaps you could accept that “Labour”, like “National”, isn’t one person and that attributing a single emotional state to a large group is both insulting and wrong.
Um, you do know where you are and who you're talking to, right? I'm not only fully accepting of that, but wouldn't mind a bit more of that love coming my way from time to time.
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Stephen Judd, in reply to
[deleted]
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Geoff Lealand, in reply to
shiny assed careerists who seem to be the staple of most seats in the opposition held by NZ Labour
Who exactly are you referring to? Looking at the list of Labour MPs, the number of long-stayers are few. If arses are shiny, then a good number of National MPs practically glow in the dark.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
What I'd love to know is how you make your arse shiny. Wax? A protective laminate? Daily applications of olive oil?
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Hebe, in reply to
The conflicts over the 80s are still playing out.
That’s the problem for those of us who would like to support Labour but cannot see how a party fighting quarter-century old ideological battles among itself can unify and run the country. Meanwhile, the very people you say you stand for suffer at the hands of the most rapacious lot of Tories since Ruth Richardson.
Why cannot Labour fight clinically and quietly behind closed doors? The battling is taking down Labour as a credible force: the slide in the polls is as much about the way Labour behaves as it is about the choice of leader.
Yes I speak from outside the party: don't you want to know what it would take to win my vote and others like me? Or would you rather be purist and in opposition? (Note no capital O: Labour has not a mortgage on being the main opposition party).
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Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
See, now you've made my brain automatically jump to images of politicians applying daily applications of olive oil. That's just, ... *runs away screaming in horror*
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
That’s the problem for those of us who would like to support Labour but cannot see how a party fighting quarter-century old ideological battles among itself can unify and run the country.
Except if you don’t have those tensions going on, you know what you get? The current mutation of the GOP, where Roland fricking Regan wouldn’t be able to pass the Tea Bagger/Theocon sniff test. Or even worse, and closer to home: New Zealand First, where it seems any incompetent sleazebag can get into caucus, as long as you’re sufficiently slavish in your devotion to Winston.
If you want to be a ‘big tent’ centerist political party, rather than a personality cult or some holding pen for swivel-eyed ideologues, then you’re going to have to figure out how to deal with sharp differences on policy etc. OTOH, there’s also the idea that a lot of grown-up politics (like life) is about coming down in a place nobody is entirely happy with, but everyone can more or less live with.
Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but I think that's something Helen Clark has never gotten full credit for. Was her pragmatism always a virtue -- inarguably not, IMO, but I think she was more of a consensus-builder than her popular image (and the persona she crafted for herself) allowed.
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The way I see it, many of you think a) Labour is somehow essential and yet b) somewhat shit. And I see two reasonable responses to that state of affairs, if you hold that view. Either work to make Labour inessential, by working for another party, or work to make Labour less shit.
And much to my surprise, yeah, I somewhat agree with Craig. People are in politics for personal ambition and policy goals. They conflict. Sometimes people can compromise, sometimes they can't. One person's "indulgence" is another's refusal to give away something vital.
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If Robertson was a lumberjack who got a degree whilst chopping down trees and playing rugby it wouldn’t matter to anyone he happened to be gay.
Grant played pretty decent level rugby in high school if that helps. I can't comment on his tree chopping abilities but I'd imagine he fails that test.
Give the Labour party the really big shake up it needs. It’s going to take a lot to stop me from drifting to Greens next election.
I don't think that's a problem for Labour - people leaving Labour to vote Green is OK, as they're coalition partners next government. Likely left voters not voting is a problem, people leaving Labour to vote NZ First, Peter Dunne, or National/Act is a problem.
Indeed, no doubt there's smart people in both Labour and Greens figuring out how best to position both parties to cover the spectrum so that they pick up as many potential voters as possible. Labour probably needs to be perceived (real or not) to have a leg solidly in the centre as that's where the swing is.
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