Hard News: The conversation they want to have
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I've been reading this thread with some interest (and horror) and haven't come up with anything interesting to say, but I'm going to say it anyway... I'm 26 and the father of a boy and a girl, aged 8 and 5 - my wife and I have only gradually gotten used to moving in social circles with our children's friends parents, who are closer to our parent's age than ours (living in Mt Eden doesn't help ;-)).
What are the biological risks associated with having children at a later age compared to the sociological risks of having children before you're mature/financially stable enough to adequately care for them? I read somewhere(TM) that for society as a whole, increasing the average age of starting a family is correlated with all kinds of benefits. Higher average education levels among women being just one.
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And yet it is mainly those nasty unnatural left handers wee hear about. Odd, eh?
I've always thought they were sinister.
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I always thought a huge chunk of the not-sprogging-with-close-rellies thing is about family structure rather than genetics. If you don't have anything funky in the gene pool it's not going to magically appear just because you get nasty with Uncle Jim but having a granddad who is also your father makes for confusion however you slice it.
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Some of this conversation brought this to mind:
I will treasure this so very much.
However, it can work other ways too. Of the many other women doing PhDs at round the same time as me, three others (like me) already had young children. One of these was a solo parent, and one had another (third) child during the PhD. Two other women had their first during (you just take a bit of time off in the middle), and one gave birth about a month after submission. The difficulties are the same as for any other working mother, i.e. the main issue is childcare; and in some ways it's easier, in that your working hours are a little more flexible than many work places, and you don't get limited sick leave.
Thanks; this is the sort of thing I need to hear. I don't expect any of it to be easy, but the more people I hear of who did it, the more it gives me hope.
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I always thought a huge chunk of the not-sprogging-with-close-rellies thing is about family structure rather than genetics
Replace "family structure" with "abuse", and you have a stronger point. The power dynamics within a family make the boundary between coercion and consent so dubious (even for legal adults) that the only prudent option is a blanket taboo (Robert Heinlein notwithstanding).
having a granddad who is also your father makes for confusion however you slice it
Confusion seems like the least of the problems.
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Holy dude. What a conversation!
Sigh ... and here's me thinking the sight of lots of families and kids playing on the playground in the sunshine was nice. Never mind.
I didn't say it wasn't! I was there with my partner and the human evidence of our own pelvic affiliation! Don't get me wrong. What I didn't like was the parade of wankers with big sunglasses and expensive buggies who didn't seem to care that the market was an unmitigated failure.
In the same vein, I was yelling vocally at anyone Saturday night at the game who in the last 5 minutes were cheering "Go Warriors!". Go Warriors? Aren't you paying attention here?!?!
Honestly Brickley, do you do any other flavour than withering?
Sometimes but not in here. What's the point of getting out of bed if it isn't to kick over a few sand castles? I thought a journalist of all people would share such an outlook. Forsooth! Fie!
Staying with the kiddy theme, I have added to the original blog post above a picture of the mothers who brought their brats to what was supposed to be a serious market, along with their ghastly offspring.
Like I said, I had my own there! I'm glad my own little one is not in the picture or I'd go Mike Hosking on your ass. Just kidding. Sort of.
Yes the initial "40 yo first time parent" comment was a troll
I wasn't being a troll. That is who was in attendance. I usually try to avoid them. I didn't think they would all be there. I also thought there would be good at the so-called Farmers' Market so perhaps their presence was brought into sharper focus due to my annoyance.
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As a 41 year old single man I think I can hear a door slamming in the distance.
Well, I wouldn't worry too much - there are many, many examples of older (some very old) men fathering perfectly healthy children that do not go on to have descendants with x-linked recessive genes. Chances are still on the side of healthy offspring and descendants, and medicine offers plenty of help (eg chorionic villus sampling) for the immediate generation at least.
The point I was trying to make is what geneticist Steve Jones said about "the ancient and universal tendency to blame women for the corruption associated with sex."
When men voice their opinions about when women should reproduce - or how females are always the commodity when sex as a commercial agreement - it's only fair these misconceptions are corrected.
What are the biological risks associated with having children at a later age compared to the sociological risks of having children before you're mature/financially stable enough to adequately care for them?
Now this is relevant, and while I don't have any stats to support me, I would hazard a guess that the emotional and financial stability are much, much more important than parental age when it comes to raising happy, healthy children.
Though to be fair, we should remember when we talk of "maturity and financial stability" we all know we mean shallow, unnatural men. Why else would they turn their backs on their masculine imperatives and waste their prime child fathering years?
We must remember that it's BIOLOGY and SCIENCE, and it should be recognised as helpful when women remind you that you risk both the health of your unborn children and the genes of your descendants when you choose to delay fatherhood.
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Personally I *much* prefer my real, authentic sunglasses to the giant sunglass-like-products that the bourgeoisie flaunt. I didn't get them from some middle-class boutique; I made my sunglasses myself at home, with barbed wire and cellophane. They don't feel like some a priori conception of sunglasses. They feel like sunglasses I made myself. They feel good.
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ROFLnui.
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We must remember that it's BIOLOGY and SCIENCE, and it should be recognised as helpful when women remind you that you risk both the health of your unborn children and the genes of your descendants when you choose to delay fatherhood.
I don't need to be reminded that my wallet is tick tick ticking away the years, you know. I'm already entirely too aware that it's drying up and shrivelling.
MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. IT'S MY GODS DAMNED WALLET TO DO WITH AS I PLEASE.
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MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. IT'S MY GODS DAMNED WALLET TO DO WITH AS I PLEASE.
Heh, exactly Morgan, we ovaried ones - whatever stage of decrepitude they're in - most heartily understand and agree.
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Dyan and Sam are both causing snerkfests over here. Heh.
I was there with my partner and the human evidence of our own pelvic affiliation! Don't get me wrong. What I didn't like was the parade of wankers with big sunglasses and expensive buggies
<voice of portent> Attention, denizens of Grey Lynn Farmers Market! There walks among you a man - with partner and his offspring - who is qualitatively indistinguishable from all of you. Yet he is superior in some ineffable way! And he scorns you! And yea, you shall know him... by his homemade felafel. </voice of portent>
(I go to the Oratia Farmers Market, anyway.)
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IT'S MY GODS DAMNED WALLET TO DO WITH AS I PLEASE.
Quite. Just mind those barbed wire fences.
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Do you think we can get them at next year's Snerkfest? That'd be awesome.
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Yet he is superior in some ineffable way!
Now there's a challenge, denizens, go forth and find the ineffable and eff it..
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Dyan and Sam are both causing snerkfests over here. Heh.
Why thank you kindly Danielle. I pride myself in coming from the smart alec capital of the world (Vancouver).
To give Morgan his dueI don't need to be reminded that my wallet is tick tick ticking away the years, you know. I'm already entirely too aware that it's drying up and shrivelling.
MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. IT'S MY GODS DAMNED WALLET TO DO WITH AS I PLEASE.he had me snerking wildly at this response.
Robyn, I do agree Morgan's a good guy, but gee it's fun to beat him up.
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And yea, you shall know him... by his homemade felafel.
Standards are slipping. Used to be the quality of your home-grown produce, now we're down to falafel. Tragic, really.
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Dyan and Sam are both causing snerkfests over here. Heh.
Of course it's been done much better before but I couldn't resist...
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The one who must be obeyed says I have admit that the Farmers Market was not an unmitigated disaster and that I know full well that Mike Hosking lost his quixotic legal proceedings.
Now I just have to figure out how to install Net Nanny or one of those thingies.
Mea culpa lo siento on s'excuse.
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What made it a disaster? You said there was nothing to buy, but didn't much elaborate - not enough stuff, or nothing particularly good, or (God forbid) too many packaged 'products'?'
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I liked the natural lime cordial at $3 a bottle with little bits of zest floating around in it. I'm definitely getting me some more of that to go with the Soda Stream.
Brickley is right in that it's not a real farmers market, and they don't yet have many (any?) of the backyard suppliers, but it was day one and it was hard to get a feel for exactly where it was at given the crowd.
I think they have to work on more real farm-direct stuff, but that probably means wooing suppliers away from other markets, which won't be so easy.
I suspect for the time being it'll be the same for me as La Cigale -- there are a few things I like that I know I can get there. And it's within easy cycling range. That's good.
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As an attender of the Dunedin Farmer's Market (on Saturdays when I'm not working), I do feel for you.
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i had the pleasure of going to the Lyttleton Farmers' Market at the end of January last year. I have to say that it was the best i've been to. a really nice community feel but also welcoming for people from outside the area. the two markets i've been to in AKL and the Matakana market are all ok with some nice stuff, but for loads of fresh produce and locals cooking up a storm, Lyttleton sets a high benchmark, imho.
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Off topic but this might relate to Russell's "It's Not OK" stuff....
Just reading a case in which some fucktard from the Father's Coalition tried to judicially review BNZ's sponsorship of a campaign against domestic violence as unlawful discrimination against men under the Bill of Rights and Human Rights Acts.
His worry was that the ads made it seem as if only men were guilty of violence against children.
At para [12], the Court kindly points out that:
It is immediately apparent that para 28 of the amended statement of claim is an unfortunate jumble of legal concepts.
That is judge-talk for "you are a fucktard".
The Court then grants the strike-out application with gusto concluding at paras [26]-[27]:
I conclude that the Bank of New Zealand’s decision at issue is not susceptible to judicial review either under the Judicature Amendment Act 1972 or at common law. I reach that conclusion on the basis of the present amended statement of claim. But I reach the same conclusion in relation to any amended pleading which would incorporate the substance of the plaintiff's claim as he has described it to the Court.
I would add that, even if the decision were amenable to judicial review, the court would almost certainly decline to grant any relief to the plaintiff. The decision has been made, the advertisement has been published and there is no evidence that a re-run of the advertisement is contemplated. This court does not assume jurisdiction in cases which can have no practical effect.
That means "fuck off and don't come back and stop wasting my time you fucktard".
The best part is at para [30]:
[Counsel for BNZ] sought costs on a 2B basis against the plaintiff if the application [for strike out] was successful. The plaintiff informed the Court that he has no resources and is in receipt of an unemployment benefit.
Nevertheless, the Bank of New Zealand has been put to the time and trouble of resisting the claim against it which has been found to be untenable. In the circumstances, the plaintiff must face the usual consequences. I order that he [ie the fucktard] pay to the second respondent [BNZ] the costs of the strike out application on a 2B basis along with any disbursements as fixed by the Registrar.
Rarely do I cheer for a bank in legal proceedings but, but but. That is going to be a hefty costs bill.
Dura lex sed lex you fucking hateful fucktard.
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Here's the citation:
EASTON V HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION And Ors HC WN CIV 2009-485-726 [13 July 2009]
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