Hard News: The song is not the same
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I'm an artiste, man, so the normal rules don't apply. But I'm the only one allowed to peddle myths around here, m'kay..
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@robbery: As is happening right here, the Govt has realised that making a large portion of the population criminals thru every-day activities isn't in their, nor society's, best interest.
Do you have MP3s on your PC? Have your transferred any CDs to your MP3 player? Unless you bought those MP3s online, you've committed a crime. It is currently illegal to copy a CD to you computer. Changes to the Copyright Act that are in progress will make that simple action legal.
The Govt has decided, over the cries from the media industry, that allowing people to transfer purchased media from one format to another is beneficial to society. They're willing to accept that theoretical increase in piracy is worth it for the rights of the population.
& in regards to copyright, the intent was to protect creations and allow the creator to make some money from their ideas without being ripped off by others. Now-a-days that's been perverted by many vested interests.
And in regards to your matter transporter analogy... if the object was copied, then the original owner has lost nothing. It's not theft.
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Ah, sanity. But for how long?
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It is currently illegal to copy a CD to you computer. Changes to the Copyright Act that are in progress will make that simple action legal.
is this a case of simon's
legislates to support those with the biggest voice and the most money to push their case.
or a case of putting into place what is right and fair.
I don't think that's the same as copying a movie and distributing it freely.
in relation to the matter transportation analogy the object is not copied, its taken. The analogy is to ascertain how to react to matters of law when technology changes the rules.
do you change the law to accommodate?a side not. the value of a film or a recording of music is in it potential income, ie a 200 million dollar movie's value is not in the single instance of it, its in the potential instances of exposure people are prepared to purchase under normal legal circumstances. illegal copying is "stealing" from potential income.
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what comic book world do you live in. most of our laws have progressively been put in place to protect the members of society fairly, or at least that's the idea.
Really Rob that's incredibly naive.
So all that outrage over the power of lobby groups in the US, the various politicians, Obama included, who've raged against them and the undue influence they assert over policy and law, the way corporations have influenced the FDA; the no-bid contracts without oversight that have slipped past the lawmakers; the environmental legislation or lack of it; the laws restricting non-US suppliers from supplying the US military even if the product is cheaper and better and a thousand other examples I can think of don't exist.
Much of that deals with corporations taking things or using things they probably should not, or being allowed to act in a way that is not beneficial to society. They benefit the corporations at a cost to society.
the legislation you're objecting to is the one dealing with 'don't take things from other people that is not yours. kind of a foundation law for the society we live in. shall we get rid if it?
I'm not objecting to anything I just want the recording industry and the copyright industry to evolve into the future instead of kowtowing to self interested corporations who are stuck in a past disappearing world, most of whom probably don't deserve the lifeline, at the expense of the people who make the music, that you seem keen to throw them.
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Artists seldom benefit when represented by fools.
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Sadly, the fools do
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What's hard to work out, Sacha, is why he's such an arsehole. I mean, Simon has said
I still hold both him and what he's achieved over the years, which is not insubstantial, in the cataloguing, archiving and presentation of NZ music in very high regard, as do many in his industry.
so he must have something going for him. Clearly not his personality nor his intelligence, but maybe he's due all that respect for being a hard worker or something. I dunno.
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Mark and Sasha: Please refrain from making personal insulkts, stick to the argument, please.
I don't know Robbery personally, but several people I know do. They all agree with Simon that Robbery has made a significant contribution - for well over two decades - to the local music scene, especially the Chch scene (no, he's not Roger Shepherd, before you ask).
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@Grant
I'm sticking to the argument as much as robbery ever has. He's seen fit to question my knowledge and capabilities, misrepresent my comments and generally be as rude as he feels like (where were you at that point, by the way?), so it's only equal time to question his. -
Oh, and it's "Sacha" by the way - y'know he might be insulted at you getting his name wrong, Grant
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Thanks Grant,
It's ok, I don't take their comments to heart, but .......they are a little freaky.as for t'other 2's inference of offending simon, he's got my personal email, as I have his, and I'm sure he'd let me know if he thought I was insulting him, ie we have a relationship outside of discussion groups that isn't going to be disrupted by words in here, the man can handle a discussion by himself. he'll say if he's offended and light ribbing from me ain't going to ruffle his feathers.
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Really Rob that's incredibly naive.
I said
most of our laws have progressively been put in place to protect the members of society fairly, or at least that's the idea.
the last part of that sentence is "or at least that's the idea".
I'm all to aware of evil big business twisting the course of fair and just, but I don't think wanting enforcement of copyright is the same as backhanders for warmongers.The principle which benefits the big and the small is "don't take what isn't yours".
We know full well that when we download a movie without paying for it we're taking something which we are expected to pay for. there's no coating it in corporate evil, its a simple breach of what we know is wrong under our current laws. its done cos no one is stopping us.saying
Sadly society often legislates to support those with the biggest voice and the most money to push their case.
in reference to attempts to stem media piracy is just being melodramatic.
I can understand why one would want to stem it and I don't think there's any level of corporate evil intrigue in the basic reason for doing so.
There may be many other sneaky things major labels do and many many indie labels don't do but pushing for enforcement of copyright isn't one of them.If implemented properly it benefits across the board, corrupt majors and naive teen synth bands alike.at the expense of the people who make the music, that you seem keen to throw them.
you're going to have to explain that one to me cos you were the label with the major distro. I was the one that avoided it, to my detriment I'll agree. I've never got into bed with them so how am I corporate evil now?.
I'm not throwing anyone at anything, never have.
I'm questioning your logic on 'attempts to stem piracy = corporate evil.I'm not questioning that there is corporate evil, just whether this is it.
It seems a clear case of trying to enforce a law to me. how ever failed an attempt it might be.
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Funny what bothers me and what doesn't. Grant, many of us are well aware of who Rob is by now and I've made clear my admiration for his work. Which makes his woeful listening, comprehension and reasoning skills all the worse.
I'd much rather he told some of the undoubtedly fascinating stories he must have accumulated by now than tried to argue about stuff when he's so obviously out of his depth. And constantly backpedalling and passing off his rudeness and wilful ignorance as light hearted joshing. You've met the type before.
Here's how I see it. If someone takes a verbal dump on the table we're all sitting round, I tend to react to the smell. When they do it again and again, I get pissed off - unless they're two year olds. I like this place and I like to be able to taste the conversation without holding my nose. There are plenty of other places to crap but few to feast.
Basically, if someone quacks like a fuckwit then that's what they will get called. I'd guarantee Rob doesn't have the balls to try this shit on in the real world, cos he'd end up sitting on his own real fast.
And finally a message from our sponsors..
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The analogy is to ascertain how to react to matters of law when technology changes the rules.
do you change the law to accommodate?setting aside them 2 dudes freaky behaviour I'd still be keen on hearing matthew's and cameron's response to the analogy based on reacting to law when technology makes it difficult to police. not that it is exactly what is happening re isp and media, its just an analogy to examine part of the equation from a different perspective.
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This must be the 5th or 6th system discussion that a bunch of people have killed in this way.
I vote for any topic which mentions 'copyright', or even 'music', Russell has a list of people who are banned from posting. I'd rather have some less informed people posting from outside the square, than what we've been getting on these topics to date, from some people on the inside of the debate.
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Kyle, remove one particular person and the problem is solved.
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Rob doesn't have the balls to try this shit on in the real world, cos he'd end up sitting on his own real fast
grow up man, I'm very open and vocal about my opinions and always have been, (go back and read that article you outed me from) and am happy for everyone else to be as well. its nothing to do with balls, its to do with having an opinion.
let simon speak for himself, he's got a thick skin and a sense of humor,
or at least that is my impression of him from the time I've known him.
stick to the topic. -
When an "opinion" is a repetitive steaming turd it has little appeal.
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Actually I'd be happy to go along with Kyle's suggestion if it meant a stench free room. No sign of the incontinent one stopping voluntarily.
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you're going to have to explain that one to me cos you were the label with the major distro. I was the one that avoided it, to my detriment I'll agree. I've never got into bed with them so how am I corporate evil now?.
Nope...having gone over this very topic countless times and explained it over and over again, I won't. Sorry. Rob, I like you a lot and respect what you do and have done but like others I seem to be on an endless loop here and I want off.
And, no, I'm not even vaguely offended. I've seen hotter arguments in band rooms over set orders, as you have. All cool.
And Mark, I'm just gonna reiterate what Grant said. It needs to cool down a bit from your end. Rob may be very and annoyingly argumentative but insults are not a part of his weaponry, at least in this thread, unless I've missed something.
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You obviously read him with more respect than I do. The endless sniping at credibility is pretty insulting, and there has been plenty of that from him towards Matthew Poole and myself in this thread, and especially from one who refuses to identify himself.
You, Simon, know who he is and so do others here. I don't. To me, he's just a self-important little person who hides behind the anonymity of the net. You say you respect what he's done, but I know nothing of that and I'm not prepared to accord him respect for anything other than what he says on here. Because that's all I know of him. And most of what he's said on PAS deserves little respect at all.
Okay, I'll back off since you ask so nicely, but there's a real smell of double standards in this place at the moment.
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I dont know who robbery is, and I have nothing to do with the ANZ music scene/industry.
All I know is - robberry has argued continuously/heartfeltly/with insider knowledge for *the rights of copyrightholders.*
And - as someone who earns a lot of their living via copyright royalties -I'm right behind him. Kia kaha, robbery!
For me, it is - give away copyright(s) - become indigent. Keep copyright(s) - as in the print media they exist in & for - continue to be a law-abiding taxpaying citizen.And, o yes! I'm well aware of the electronic side of things! I've been conducting a discussion with USA publishers over electronic rights. Those, I retain...
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All I know is - robberry has argued continuously/heartfeltly/with insider knowledge for *the rights of copyrightholders.*
thanks islander ( I do know who you are, I think)
that's the fun thing about discussion, if there's no one arguing the opposite point of view its the sound of one hand clapping. -
I won't. Sorry. Rob,
I was taking issue with you saying I was keen to throw people who make music to self interested corporates. I have no such interest and you know it. it was a long sentence you wrote though so maybe you meant something else, its late and I'm dealing with taxes, my reading comprehension may be off.
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