Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Ups and Downs

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  • Tom Beard,

    would be "had have continued" or, even better, the simpler "had continued".

    I agree that the latter is best, but it's interesting to see the evolution. It's not quite an Eggcorn, but I don't think it's a simple mistake either, since a mishearing is being pushed in the direction of a new meaning or construction.

    First "had have" gets contracted to "had've", then someone mishears that as "had of" and writes it that way, and finally people start distinctly pronouncing the "of" rather than just eliding the vowel. It's not just that the spoken rules, but that the spoken and the written influence one another.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1040 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Wain,

    Well said Mr Beard.

    Gio, you're just taking the piss.... ;-)

    But OK, how about this:

    "If it had have continued, it would have been a disaster"

    Like I say, ugly. But correct. I think. (The longer you look at English, the weirder it looks...)

    Not sure how you'd describe that or those verb forms, any TESOL teachers out there will be able to though.

    I blame the parents. Not sure if they're French, Latin or German in this case. Or Norse. English, she gets around. Very successful but hard to learn, comparitively (I only speak this tongue pas fortunately pour moi...)

    Since Nov 2006 • 155 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Beard,

    I'm not sure that "had have" is itself correct english. There are some suggestions that that "I would have" has influenced the invention of the incorrect & redundant "I had have", since the former is often contracted to "I'd have" and the "'d" could be a contraction for either would or had, so some people started re-expanding it to "I had have".

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1040 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    "If it had have continued, it would have been a disaster"

    I wasn't taking the piss, it's just the first time I've seen the subjunctive formed in that way (outside of the vernacular had of). I would have expected something along the lines of "had it continued" or "if it had continued".

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    "Had have continued" does not use any tense with which I am familiar. It reminds me of the novel grammatical forms proposed in the Hitchhikers's Guide to the Galaxy to deal with the problems created by time travel.

    I continued: simple past (or preterite).
    I have continued: perfect.
    I had continued: pluperfect.
    *I had have continued: ???

    Furthermore, to the extent that usage legitimates things that were once errors, at least "had of" is frequent and everybody knows what it means. "had have" is some sort of weird hypercorrection like "between you and I" and deserves to die.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Wain,

    Mmmm... having had the opportunity to read Mr Beard's excellent link, I hereby have to declare myself had!

    Since Nov 2006 • 155 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    As I said, it's not my place to talk about Chris's condition, but I can give some context. A friend of mine had a severe stroke eight months ago.

    And mine was a few years back, but I too was paralysed down the entire left side, which doesn't help the talking thing. So a wheelchair to start with. The rehab I was in did not like my chances and they are duty bound to give you worst case scenario, (I had a couple of other problems too, in fairness to them) which I think motivated me more . One day I was reprimanded when caught dragging myself down the hallway because I wanted to walk. That was the day I decided to go home.That in itself was another issue for te rehab, so first order of the day was them giving me permission for my dog to visit. A week or so later, I could walk and talk well much to their surprise. A few days after that, I went home to paint the house, (it was xmas after all) Y'know, wax on wax off. It worked. So 5 years on, left side still has lack of feeling but useable. Wish him the best for me RB. Determination, mother of all invention :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    One might add that "Had it continued" is more even economical. If one were the type to refer to oneself or indefinite others using the word "one".

    'Had uv' is good spoken New Zild but apparently it doesn't write down well.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    This just in:

    There is now an official how-is-Chris-Knox blog, which is a great way of keeping all his many friends in touch.

    First update:

    15th June 2009
    Media statement from Ward-Knox family
    Re: Chris Knox

    “We have been overwhelmed by the level of support for Chris from around the world since his stroke. We’d like to express our thanks to everyone who has helped or wished us well in the last few days.

    “Like many other families who are currently experiencing a similar change to their lives we are learning a great deal about strokes and their long-term effects. We have learned that it is too early to predict the ramifications of a stroke with any degree of accuracy. However, positive anecdotes have been flooding in which fill us all with hope.

    “Chris is not in pain and is responsive to family and friends who are very optimistic and focused on Chris’s well being. He enjoyed his vegetable frittata this morning but I suffered the classic Knox withering look when I mentioned beer.

    “As the situation becomes clearer to us we will happily inform those who wish to know.

    “We have created a site at chrisknox.blogtown.co.nz for this purpose. We aim to keep this site as current as possible.”

    Family contact - Roy Martyn

    You can also go there and leave a well-wishing message.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • dyan campbell,

    Thanks, Russell, for the bulletin about Chris. I was extremely distressed to read the SST story

    Yes, me too - thanks for the bulletin and I was also very distressed to hear about Chris. Best wishes to Barbara & family.

    I understand things are a bit more hopeful than was suggested in the Sunday Star Times' front-page story

    My husband Paul is a physiotherapist and has done quite a bit of work with stroke patients, and while not an expert on brain injury, he was familiar enough with them to be very dubious about this report, saying no one can really predict the outcome of a stroke - many people recover very well indeed.

    My first thought when I read the article was that someone has misinterpreted what the hospital staff told them, because it's very doubtful any doctor would make a prediction about recovery from a brain injury this soon.

    Paul says he has seen people 80 years old make excellent recoveries after a stroke - and for someone nearly 25 years younger the prognosis is that much better.

    Best wishes to Chris and the Ward-Knox family.

    New Research into Stroke Recovery

    auckland • Since Dec 2006 • 595 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    Act may not have a 'mandate' but they are part of the National led gummint.

    Indeed. Which means the discussion shouldn't be along the lines of "this man has no mandate", but "why exactly is the crowd WITH the mandate running with this?"

    In some ways it suits National to have it painted as a "3% guy pushing through changes". Because that distracts from their signatures on the Cabinet Paper and their votes in the Hansard.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    In some ways it suits National to have it painted as a "3% guy pushing through changes"

    While I think it adds about as much to worthwhile debate, as trying to rationally engage with the cranks who've never gotten over the death of FPP where you had if not an "elected dictatorship" something pretty close to a cosy duopoly.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Alan Perrott,

    totally offplot, but anyone watching the tweets coming out of iran...?

    as an old skool msm'er I think I might just crawl off and find myself a warm tarpit to relax in.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 438 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    totally offplot, but anyone watching the tweets coming out of iran...?

    I am now, via @tzemingdynasty

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    I see that National have found someone to replace Worth, hopefully this time around someone will explain to the new guy what being "Minister of Internal Affairs" actually means

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2623 posts Report Reply

  • Alan Perrott,

    pretty amazing tool. I've been watching #iranelection.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 438 posts Report Reply

  • James Green,

    Not had have, but the have/of thing always reminds me of Bill Manhire's Declining the Naked Horse

    The naked horse came into the room.
    The naked horse comes into the room.
    The naked horse has come into the room.
    The naked horse will be coming into the room.
    The naked horse is coming into the room.
    The naked horse does come into the room.
    The naked horse had come into the room.
    The naked horse would of come into the room
    again if we hadn't of stopped it.

    Limerick, Ireland • Since Nov 2006 • 703 posts Report Reply

  • James Green,

    Eeep. I just realised that there is actually a had not have (hadn't of) in the last sentence! Never noticed it before.

    Limerick, Ireland • Since Nov 2006 • 703 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    horse would of come

    /cry

    not of ... have

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    "Had have continued" does not use any tense with which I am familiar

    It is a double pluperfect, an informal conversational style which replaces the conditional. It expresses unreality - an event that did not occur but might have done. It is not the same as "had continued," which expresses an event which did occur.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Beard,

    /cry

    not of ... have

    That's kind of the point.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1040 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I see that National have found someone to replace Worth, hopefully this time around someone will explain to the new guy what being "Minister of Internal Affairs" actually means.

    And Richard Griffin has again been allowed to go on the radio and declare nothing-to-see-here-there-is-no-chance-of-criminal-charges-and-it's-all-Phil-Goff's-fault-anyway on his mate's behalf.

    Jim Mora was his usual forthright self in response ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    That's kind of the point

    Yeah it's poetry and I fail at poetry.

    But after spending time in the US where "being burglurized was not that big of a deal" I've come to loathe that particular abuse of the language.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report Reply

  • Zippy Gonzales,

    Is had,v an actual word? if not why not?

    I was just going to reply on exactly that point, steven. Kiwis also invented the word I'd've (pronounced eye-div or eye-dov), a particularly ugly word on paper, but a useful one.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 186 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I was just going to reply on exactly that point, steven. Kiwis also invented the word I'd've (pronounced eye-div or eye-dov), a particularly ugly word on paper, but a useful one.

    Really? It's ours? I'm stoked.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

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