Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: What to Do?

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  • Graeme Edgeler,

    I think that I heard during Question Time today that the wording could be altered if the Ref Organisers were willing. Tail end with something about a consultation with the Clerk? Anyone out there?

    Not at this point in the process. Far too late for that now (without a law change).

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Paully,

    Remember that Helen Clark received a lot of criticism for not including it as part of the electoral ballot in November?

    Yes, and I wasn't buying that it was logistically and financially impossible. I do however perfectly understand the political angle that this was the last thing Clark (or anyone else) wanted that back on the agenda during an election that was going to be enough of a shit fight.

    I wonder whether Key would have come out so strongly stating how stupid this is if it had been run with the General Election!

    Palmerston North • Since Mar 2009 • 2 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks,

    If you're Pakeha, it's all too easy to think that there is no difference. I saw some unpublished analysis that showed a very high correlation between answering "New Zealander" and experiencing redness of the neck.

    I haven't seen any such studies, but that was my anecdotal impression.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Graeme, like the rest of the world we changed from race to ethnicity as a concept some time ago. Not that you'd know listening to talkback, I guess.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks,

    a whole lot of our compatriots not knowing the difference between nationality and ethnicity


    I thought the major problem was our Government not wanting to ask a question about race.

    Ummm, not sure. Both 'race' and 'ethnicity' can be problematic. But the latter as the connotation of something you identify yourself with - which I guess is what the government/department was after. (As opposed to race being seen more as something you are categorised as part of.)

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Litterick,

    If you're Pakeha, it's all too easy to think that there is no difference. I saw some unpublished analysis that showed a very high correlation between answering "New Zealander" and experiencing redness of the neck.

    The Census identification "New Zealander" gives me as much mirth as the current CIR question. Back in the day, somewhere around 1840, "New Zealander" meant Maori, and was commonly used as such in official documents and in literature.

    Perhaps some citizens should make a concerted effort to encourage the Census to allow them to identify themselves as Hottentots or Mulattos.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1000 posts Report Reply

  • James Green,

    I saw some unpublished analysis that showed a very high correlation between answering "New Zealander" and experiencing redness of the neck.

    I can point you to a study that used the old census question with Pākehā, and those who used the write in options knew fewer Māori words. Not quite the same as redness of the neck, but perhaps less open.

    Limerick, Ireland • Since Nov 2006 • 703 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    James Green, I'd be obliged for a link to that study-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Answering New Zealander skewed a lot of otherwise useful census data. But I heard - and there must be people here who actually work for Stats NZ and so know much better than me - that it was most likely to be used as an answer by older pakeha men in the south island.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    I'm going to end up in a head-desk coma if I hear one more story bitching about the cost of referenda, and perhaps that's a sufficient reason in itself to do away with the damn things. Perhaps someone should point out to these people that we'd save a shit load of dosh if we shut down the Police, the judiciary and appointed Jerry Mateparae dictator for life. It wouldn't be a country worth living in, but it would save a lot of money.

    A better argument for doing away with CIRs is that they're utterly meaningless, and would be if you could run them and get change from a twenty.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    My definition of Pakeha, involves understanding Maori protocol.

    I have not seen it defined that way before, Steven. To me it means I am from New Zealand but I am not Maori. I certainly do not feel at all "European" and tauiwi seems to fit more recent migrants better.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    And recent migrants from Europe seem far more fittingly described as "European New Zealanders". Statistics NZ just lost their nerve when they removed Pakeha as the preferred term.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks,

    Watching Campbell Live by any chance, Craig?

    You're correct that the main reason CIRs are a bad idea is that they're bad democracy. But still: bad, waste of time ideas that cost quite a lot are naturally more concerning than bad ideas that waste time but little else.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks,

    Sacha, didn't they have both options? I can't recall. Certainly I think they should have had both as tick box options: Pakeha, or NZ European.

    I prefer NZ European to just putting New Zealander, for reasons I may go into if I get drunk enough. I have no problem with Pakeha either, though.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Something that occurs to me is that the wording of the question is required to:
    ... be such as to convey clearly the purpose and effect of the indicative referendum;

    Now, I reckon the question being asked doesn't do this. It doesn't indicate whether and how the Crimes Act should be changed, in other words to reinstate S.59 or something else. any voter is unable to tell what the effect of the referendum would be, should Parliament decide to give it effect.

    Obviously the Clerk thought otherwise. I wonder (Graeme?) whether that decision can be challenged, or whether it's covered by parliamentary privilege?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Jan Farr,

    I think I'd be vaguely happy with the wording if the word 'good' was taken out of it. Talk about subjectivity overload.

    I don't want to support the referendum makers, but I can imagine a posse of goofy people sitting around trying to create a question that distinguishes them from bad parents and the sort of discipline they might dish out - ie - a thrashing, a beating, a killing. And these 'good' parents only want to give Johnny a tap on the hand when he goes too close to the fire, the traffic, the witch in the cupboard at the bottom of the stairs etc. I am very tempted to spoil the ballot - the obvious answer to me is 'It's not.' (Wasn't that the point of giving the police discretionary powers?) But I really want them to lose - so I'll be voting 'yes'.

    Carterton • Since Apr 2008 • 395 posts Report Reply

  • Vaughn Davis,

    The wording of the question is up to the petitioner. Whether or not it becomes a CIR depends upon whether or not 10% of voters think it should. Democracy has always replied upon the wisdom of crowds - you have to take the crunchy with the smooth, as Billy Bragg might once have said.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 21 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    While you're topping up, Steve, I remembered that this conversation had happened hereabouts a few years back under the watchful tutelage of a respected specialist now marshalling middle eastern tweets. Worth a read.

    They're taking over. The 'New Zealanders' I mean. As you can see, they're actively killing off the white-folk, looting their homes and renaming their children.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Obviously the Clerk thought otherwise. I wonder (Graeme?) whether that decision can be challenged, or whether it's covered by parliamentary privilege?

    I don't believe it would be covered by parliamentary privilege, but it's a little late to challenge it now.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    the obvious answer to me is 'It's not.' (Wasn't that the point of giving the police discretionary powers?) But I really want them to lose - so I'll be voting 'yes'.

    The point of re-stating the discretionary power that already existed anyway, was to make people think that the answer is 'It's not' when the law is that a smack is now a criminal offence.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason,

    Why "deface" the paper?

    I say do it because it sends a message that it IS a ridiculous question AND it has the added advatage that it gets counted.

    I always thought it would be great to form the "Informal Party". No entry fee and you get a total at the end of the night.

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1590 posts Report Reply

  • Jan Farr,

    I seem to remember that the proposed scheme wasn't that good.

    And as I remember it considerably lowered the amount of the super payment as a percentage of the average wage.

    Carterton • Since Apr 2008 • 395 posts Report Reply

  • Jan Farr,

    Did anyone hear about the woman who received emails thanking her for signing the 'smacking' petition, when she hadn't done so?

    Carterton • Since Apr 2008 • 395 posts Report Reply

  • Gregor Ronald,

    Hmmm, not so sure. I don't mind being called Pakeha, though - to me it's shorthand for "New Zealander of European origin" or something along those lines. I've never felt any kind of "relationship" with Maori other than "Hi, how ya doing?". Are we reading too much into this?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 103 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    I like "pakeha" a lot - I'm happily pakeha - in the US I'd be a "honky" - not a nice word - it's great to have a word that's neutral that describes me

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2623 posts Report Reply

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