Legal Beagle by Graeme Edgeler

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Legal Beagle: Practical considerations

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  • Ian Dalziel,

    Broadcast revenue problem solved...
    Now they can sell ads on Parliament TV
    - as our Westminster stylings
    become less Yes Minister
    and more Mana bout the House


    ...and via the wonders of digital interaction
    the logos of the major party donors could float
    in a cloud over each and every sitting member
    - transparency amidst an imbroglio of riches ...

    </daydream>

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7892 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Interesting micro analysis Graeme, but I'd personally have just said outright that I very much doubt that Hone is about the money in this case, because he's risking losing it all. He's a guy with a strong sense of his importance to Maori, a natural rebel, and he doesn't like cosying up to National. That's pretty much a good enough explanation, right?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    amidst an imbroglio of riches

    Nat, a la imbroglio.

    Should we be Counting down the days?

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Mana bout the House

    noice

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19688 posts Report Reply

  • Dave Patrick,

    Morning Report AND The Press both had items this morning about how this would mean more money for Hone - I was dying to send them the link to this blog. Why can't real journalists do this kind of analysis?

    Rangiora, Te Wai Pounamu • Since Nov 2006 • 261 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to recordari,

    Too much to hope for a Left of the Middle
    outcome, or even a chance that Parliament might Come to Life, I guess...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7892 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Or Michelle Boag to become judge for reality TV show, 'New Zealand's Got Talons'.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to recordari,

    or a reality-based Dog Show called The Ex-Factor

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7892 posts Report Reply

  • Greg Dawson, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    I think it will become clear that while they’re claiming to be Mana from heaven, they’re really a party of muppets.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 294 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Morning Report AND The Press both had items this morning about how this would mean more money for Hone – I was dying to send them the link to this blog. Why can’t real journalists do this kind of analysis?

    Five years of law school?

    I can't blame journalists for not doing this analysis. As I note, this is not clear. It is clear that he would get money if the Mana Party is registered by the by-election. He may get money if it is not, although that would be putting an awful deal of power in the hands of a local returning officer.

    If I was a journalist, I'd have found out what happened with Tariana Turia (i.e. whether the fact she stood for an unregistered party made a difference), and I'd have spoken to the Office of the Clerk to get confirmation (off the record if necessary): maybe they did.

    p.s. why didn't you forward this to Morning Report? =) There's a reason I was up until 5am on Sunday Morning writing it: I wanted to get in on the ground floor so that the first people having the discussion would have the option of having the information available to them.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3202 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    The Media in NZ are pretty short on fact and info, they only serve as a flag on an issue and if you want to know more you read an informed blog or do the research yourself.

    "But it is difficult to know Hone's true motivations in going, and in going now.”

    The best way to find out what Hone thinks or why he is doing something would likely be to ask him - to me he seems pretty straight up.

    I am willing to listen to what he, the party, will have to say, much more than say Dr Brashkenstein or Goff.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • dave crampton,

    Why can’t real journalists do this kind of analysis?

    When have you seen a news article that has mentioned standing orders – most journalists don’t appear to know much about them, let alone attempt to interpret them alongside legislation.

    welli • Since Jan 2007 • 144 posts Report Reply

  • Alhambra, in reply to Graeme Edgeler,

    Only if the census never happens. I don't imagine that will be the case.

    It has happened twice before (1931 & 1941), why is the 2011 census any different?
    The circumstances aren't important: Depression; War; Earthquake, what is notable is that in both previous cases the 5 year cycle wasn't broken by the skipping of a census.

    Since May 2011 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Alhambra,

    It has happened twice before (1931 & 1941), why is the 2011 census any different?

    Reliance on Census data by both business and public sectors is far more pervasive now than 70 and 80 years ago. And 5 years is a relatively longer wait now than then, given the pace of life.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19688 posts Report Reply

  • Alhambra, in reply to Sacha,

    Reliance on Census data by both business and public sectors is far more pervasive now than 70 and 80 years ago. And 5 years is a relatively longer wait now than then, given the pace of life.

    Conversely, the amount of planning required from stats nz is that much more than it was way back whenever. And if you'd lived through way back then as well as the here and now then the present lustrum would seem so much shorter ... but that is as irrelevant as your 'pace of life' analysis - in any case, most countries hold their censes once every ten years, Australia and Japan every 5 years while next week's German census is the first since 1987.
    Census data during the Depression and the War would have been tainted by the unnatural displacement of substantial sections of the population - just as is the case now vis-a-vis the displaced population of Christchurch post 22 Feb. It is reasonable to assume that no census worth its salt can be taken while there are still large numbers or persons unnaturally displaced, unemployed, homeless or living without sanitation, and given that it will take a considerable time to alleviate this situation AND the time it will take to plan another census we'd not be that far short of March 2016 anyway.

    Since May 2011 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    It has happened twice before (1931 & 1941), why is the 2011 census any different?

    I don't know what the law said in 1931 or 1941, but the Statistics Act 1975 is in absolutist terms. The Government *must* hold a census, or amend the law.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3202 posts Report Reply

  • Alhambra, in reply to Graeme Edgeler,

    I don't know what the law said in 1931 or 1941, but the Statistics Act 1975 is in absolutist terms. The Government *must* hold a census, or amend the law.

    Exactly; the government must abide by the 1975 act, and as it states,

    The census of population and dwellings of New Zealand shall be taken by the Department in the year 1976 and in every fifth year thereafter.

    That would suggest that 2012 - 2015 are ruled out. The govt has already stated that amending legislation is needed to allow for the non-census of 2011 - they have not said that the census would be transferred to another year. As to the absolutist terms of the 1975 Act, it is quite likely that will be the part of the Act amended - a simple addition something like "unless the Statistician considers that the census could not be successfully completed in any census year". It saves having to repeat the process in any future circumstance, and it avoids prescribing further changes - if the census were to be postponed until (say) 2014 what happens to the subsequent 2016, 2021, 2026 etc. census in relation to the phrase "in every fifth year thereafter"? They are just as fixed in the Act as was the 2011 census.

    Since May 2011 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Alhambra,

    the time it will take to plan another census

    But they have already done the planning. Delivery can happen any time once the relvance of factors you've mentioned like displacement are decided upon - and the processing capacity from their damaged Christchurch centre is replaced. That is a matter of months, not five years.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19688 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Alhambra,

    It is reasonable to assume that no census worth its salt can be taken while there are still large numbers or persons unnaturally displaced, unemployed, homeless or living without sanitation

    There was some argument about that from interested parties in the media.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19688 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Young,

    Insofar as the party list goes, given the recent poltergeist activity, I should imagine the deck chairs are currently being rearranged on that metaphorical Titanic.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 566 posts Report Reply

  • NBH, in reply to Alhambra,

    Alhambra, having the Census in 2014 would definitely be problematic if we then continued with the normal timetable of a 2016 Census, but everything I've heard is that the deferrment option will be for 2012. As mentioned upthread, Census data is pretty critical these days for a lot of govt agencies, councils, DHBs, NGOs, education organisations etc., and these organisations really need that information as soon as possible. There were also one or two new/ rephrased questions in this year's that were going to provide some quite valuable information (e.g. getting high-quality data on the number and nature of households that only have mobile phone access, which sounds minor but will be very useful background info for formulating, refining and critiquing research designs).

    Furthermore, the Census is always a snapshot in time, and it's at least arguable that we should make an effort to capture the effects of the earthquake in this data - the main problem with the quake is its impact on the logistics of conducting the Census, and by March 2012 things should have calmed down enough for that not to be an issue.

    Wellington • Since Oct 2008 • 97 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    They just need an Order in Council under CERA to cancel the census, right?

    Various countries such as Germany and Switzerland have moved away from a census and used sampling and official records instead. I'd guess this would work well in NZ where the baseline exit and entry numbers would be pretty accurate.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Alhambra, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    They just need an Order in Council under CERA to cancel the census, right?

    It was a bit more than that - a Proclamation by GG.
    Proclamation - Revocation of the 2011 Census

    Sampling, and Census less frequently would be the best of both worlds :)

    I think that this thread is derailed enough, so back on topic.

    Has Hone Harawira been derailed himself by the several issues he didn't consider (Māori Party sees agreement not binding to Mana Party & by-election, financial and party registration issues etc.) and quietly shelved his notice to resign Te Tai Tokerau? The time to have resigned was when he said he would, not after discovering he is forced to Act just to hold on to his credibility and his 'Mana'.

    Since May 2011 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    Various countries such as Germany and Switzerland have moved away from a census and used sampling and official records instead. I’d guess this would work well in NZ where the baseline exit and entry numbers would be pretty accurate.

    There are pretty serious privacy implications there in terms of `official records'. Not saying I'm against it absolutely, but.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1452 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    No more than with existing census data. One just has to ensure that the material is kept confidential (something I know Stats are extremely diligent at) and only released in aggregated, non-identifiable form.

    Departure and arrival records are already shared with many agencies, and births and deaths are a matter of public record, anyway.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

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