Speaker: Copyright Must Change
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@Sacha:
unitl recently, it was generally assumed that unless you were one of the major record companies, iTunes wouldn't deal with you directly. so companies referred to as "aggregators" got accreditation to become suppliers to iTunes, and if a small label wanted to sell on iTunes they needed to be represented by an iTunes-accredited aggregator. and usually pay a 20% cut of retail. apparently, with more local iTunes stores opening up in the last year or three, it is not as hard as before to go direct to iTunes. Russell provided the example of Fat Freddy's Drop.
obviously, the role of the aggregator is quite different from the old physical distributor model, though. one of their main roles is the legal side of digital distribution. another is managing payments, etc.
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I think Simon has a good handle on how the roles have shifted, which are in some cases by degree and in others fundamentally.
but also the marketer
I'm not denying that placement and other promotional dealing still exists. However, a signficant chunk of what the marketing role used to do - bring people and music together - can now be done by mechanisms like iTunes without extra effort. Similarly, Amazon's recommendations system is a fantastic tool for driving sales without anyone having to do much else.
It's early days but that's the direction I see things going: very efficient and wide-reaching systems for doing what humans have always done - trusted each other's opinions about what is good. Crowdfiltering.
However, with the economies of distribution dramatically changed, new models for funding the creation process are needed.
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it is not as hard as before to go direct to iTunes.
I wonder if their rollout was always planned that way?
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ooh, so asking a question deemed by you to be inappropriate, means i "should sit this one out"?
nah, just the rudely phrased ones. no offense taken though.
I quite up on what aggrigators do, I have to deal with them, shop for a good one, they do offer different approaches -
That someone takes a cut is hardly a major point of similarity.
its the same cut. half the total take of an album sale, but not the same amount of money as before.
distro and retail cut on a cd of $29.95 = $15.53
label/artist $14.42distro retail on $18 download = $9
label/artist $9although you're pro the new system one major retailer is very very dangerous.
what if itunes aren't into your stuff, don't like your politics etc.
with stores you had in a town like chch with maybe 10 music stores 1-2 that would be tuned to your specific genre.you do have that to a degree in downloads but if the beatles have to think twice about not using itunes because people won't bother going to their store then thats a worrying trend.
There's a 50% increase in income direct to the owners of the copyright work if people deal direct. cutting ot the middle man of itunes.
there's also the issue of being found or noticed on itunes. that front page is only so big.
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it's about as different as it gets.
no, having your own site that people would gladly go to and purchase directly from it is as different as it can get.
going through an aggregator and a retailer is exactly the same as going through a distributor and a retailer, just different processes but same role essentially.
They're charging you for access to the customer, just like a shop did, they stand between you and your customer or they link you with your customer, depending on how you look at it. probably a little of both.
promoting your product in the new net 2.0 world is also similar. you just use different tools to fight for attention for your product, to draw attention to it over other products vying for the same dollar. that game has got bigger, more cluttered, but its the same process.
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its the same cut.
So what, show me a business where a distributor / agent doesn't take a cut.
going through an aggregator and a retailer is exactly the same as going through a distributor and a retailer, just different processes but same role essentially.
And show me a retailer that will, with one hit, get you into millions of homes and, now, phones, and I'll agree, until then, it's light years away.
if the beatles have to think twice about not using itunes because people won't bother going to their store then thats a worrying trend.
If the Beatles opened a retail store in 5th Ave, they'd not get 20% of the sales that they'd get from being in Best Buy further down the street. It's not a trend, it's a retail fact...catalogue sales of music is more often than not driven by impulse. For the Beatles to add a major barrier like the need to destination shop is a huge negative for them.
what if itunes aren't into your stuff, don't like your politics etc.
Then you go to Beatport, eMusic, Amazon and a whole lot more, where you should be anyway...and you turn iTunes refusal to stock it into a marketing angle.
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So what, show me a business where a distributor / agent doesn't take a cut.
I didn't make a point that a business doesn't take a cut I made the point that it was the same cut, ie 50% for a greatly reduced role.
You got shares in itunes or something?
you could just say, "yeah they could drop their take back and it would help get the price of music down" but you seem to want me to love the itunes. They're skimming the profit off this big time.get you into millions of homes
you left off the key word "potentially" as in potentially gets you into millions of homes. just co you're tucked away in the back corner of a virtual store doesn't mean you can start paying the down payments on the gazebo extension. You've still got to be found and chosen from the massive amount of stuff listed.
Its the real groovy tressle tables of doom syndrome, although at least this time its indexed and searchable and not just dumped out there in the middle of the store.It's not a trend, it's a retail fact
its a retail fact that is a worrying trend in shopping. one big player that takes all the business and all the profit is not a good thing for any industry or society, cos then they pretty much can dictate the rules. you must have noticed the reduction in diversity of shops on your recent return to nz. every shopping mall has exactly the same stores selling exactly the same products. that makes for a dull hopping experience. I acknowledge the good in itunes but you should also acknowledge the bad, cos its not all good.
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hopping shopping,
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And show me a retailer that will, with one hit, get you into millions of homes
here's one
piped into the same millions of homes but not much good unless people actually go there. -
as a label and copyright owner,
what stuff are you working on at the moment simon?
how have things changed for you working in the label game today to what it was like 20 years ago?
are you seeing the financial results at the end of the line in similar or better amounts compared to similar acts you maight have been involved with in past years, ie is it getting better or worse on the returns front? -
piped into the same millions of homes but not much good unless people actually go there.
Which is exactly Simon's point. It's iTunes, people go there, from everywhere...
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my point was its a little more complex than that. itunes isn't the solution to all problems, and in some case its the problem to some solutions.
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I'm not denying the pluses pointed out by simon just saying there are negatives to the positives, and some taking a step sideways rather than forward issues.
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I'm not denying the pluses pointed out by simon just saying there are negatives to the positives, and some taking a step sideways rather than forward issues.
No one else is denying there are negatives either. Simon's already stated that it needs competition.
Rob, have you ever looked at eMusic for distributing your stuff? I have no idea of the payment setup but it's a much better application than iTunes and is the place to go for alternative, non-mainstream stuff with a huge membership so would be a good fit for your catalogue.
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Rob, have you ever looked at eMusic for distributing your stuff
Thanks peter. I'm cool for that side of things, I wasn't so much looking for a deal as trying to highlight areas of non perfection and downright same old same old in the distro world.
I think the mark up that distro takes in both the old and the new modles contribute massively to the agreed high cost of music.
in digital distribution I can see no real reason for that cost to be so high except to make big profits.The beatles catalogue being offered in its own shop would give them the opportunity to half the cost to consumers, but they'd probably choose to double their profits instead.
I personally like the idea of diversity of shops, but maybe thats just me.
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The beatles catalogue being offered in its own shop would give them the opportunity to half the cost to consumers, but they'd probably choose to double their profits instead.
That would certainly be very cool as it's one of the few rights holder/distributors that might have the clout to force iTunes to drop their price a bit. I agree that iTunes is too high a price for electronic, whereas a new album by the likes of TV on the Radio, Animal Collective, Mr Scruff or whatever costs me about $8 (compared to $34 in the bricks & mortar store) and I like that a lot!
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you got em for $8 from itunes? their albums are listed for $18 up here at the moment. was it a special deal or did you go direct via the artist?
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I think he's talking about eMusic. The subscription prices range between US$0.25 and US$0.40 a song.
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Rob, have you ever looked at eMusic for distributing your stuff? I have no idea of the payment setup but it's a much better application than iTunes and is the place to go for alternative, non-mainstream stuff with a huge membership so would be a good fit for your catalogue.
I reckon. One of Rob's bands, Kimo, are there but with a different label -- they're getting a bit of Hype Machine action to send people to eMusic too.
Seriously, Rob, how come? I know you sell via PayPal from your own website, but why not have the goods on sale where the people are?
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you got em for $8 from itunes? their albums are listed for $18 up here at the moment. was it a special deal or did you go direct via the artist?
No, on eMusic.
I'm on the fat man's package so comes out at about $0.50c per tune or $6-$8 per album. I particularly love it when I'm buying all that expensive UK import reggae :-) Makes me smell like a winner.
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One of Rob's bands, Kimo
they better not be, I haven't released that to anyone yet.
hopefully that's the american kimo otherwise I'm being pirated.Rob, how come?
all of the stuff is on amplifier.
to be honest in the first 3 years of that I was hardly blown away by the sales. something like $40 for a years downloads. didn't seem worth the effort.
like Islander I'm not in a rush to get into that part of the game and I think it should be done right.
Just whacking it up on itunes is near pointless in my opinion.
I'm all for a good aggrigator (that' such an ugly word to say) who does promotion and gets it seen in the right places.if you've done your own record any time in the last 10 years you'll know the game has changed from 20 years ago where purely by the fact you paid for a pressing you had lifted yourself out from the crowd.
now having a completed disc is the smallest part of the game. getting it in a shop is an achievement but that in itself achieves nothing. it can easily sit there un noticed for 6 months and then come back unsold.
to me itunes is the corner dairy selling newspapers (and they should only get 20 cents a paper). they make a financial transaction but don't add much more to the meal other than take someones money and let them download a track and its all automated anyway, its not like there's someone ringing up the cash register. its not worth 1/3 of the pie.
the Aggrigator is the one who potentially does the big work in the distro chain.
I haven't found one I like yet.
I recently went with border music for physical distro though and love em to bits although doing that has made each project less viable financially for the cut that gets lost. you reach more people but you take less of the pie and you actually end up slightly behind where you were going to be without it. well hopefully not but that's what it looks like at the moment. -
Just whacking it up on itunes is near pointless in my opinion.
But.what.about.eMusic.FFS! :-) I'm talking about http://www.emusic.com. It's not the great evil of iTunes, it's for indies and the fans that go there are looking for that stuff. It seems like a friendlier place and I'd be interested in your opinion if you ever want to check it out from the band/label guy side of the fence.
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I'd be interested in your opinion if you ever want to check it out from the band/label guy side of the fence.
ok ok, I'll look into it,
I wanted to have a browse but you have to give your credit card to look through the site. I know their not a suspicious site but that by default spooks me. -
I wanted to have a browse but you have to give your credit card to look through the site.
I think you can get in from a Google search using the site selector. e.g. 'king tubby site:emusic.com'
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