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Speaker: Not even a statistic

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  • Craig Ranapia,

    Shut up Rodney. (No I’m notgoing to link, but he’s at it again and people wonder why victims of sexual assault, abuse and harassment don't report? Look in the mirror, Rodders.)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12363 posts Report Reply

  • Jason Kemp, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    I disagree with Rodney on most things but surely his opening sentence and second paragraph are positives in the light of the current discussion. From todays Herald.

    Rodney says..

    "I have reluctantly concluded that New Zealand does suffer a rape culture.

    It’s not an “all men are rapists” and “I am sorry for being a man” type of thing. Rather, it’s the way men can commit sex crimes and get away with it. The system works to protect the privileged and powerful."

    and later Rodney again says

    "And there’s our rape culture. Our system protects the offender and puts women at risk. “

    You may disagree but it does sound like progress. If we make any discussion on this topic an absolute minefield to talk about then no one will.

    Also in the Herald today Indecent act man calls in lawyers

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 349 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Jason Kemp,

    disagree with Rodney on most things but surely his opening sentence and second paragraph are positives in the light of the current discussion. From todays Herald.

    Hey I can't stand the guy most of the time but I think in this instance his attempt to understand Rape Culture is a good start for Harold readers.Last week men couldn't accept an apology, this week Rodney tries. If at the end of the day we insist the word can only be spread a certain way, we will lose right there. I'd like to imagine that having a family and living outside the bubble for long enough now has given him a chance to grow up just a bit. Any attempt to bring this out to the public arena (and why not close to an Election) is a positive thing. Dam having to tread lightly for some Politicians. Show us the true colours.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Sunday mourning. At the arts and crafts village in central wellington. During 1996, Te papa was under construction, and there was a group of old world workshop buildings that had been inhabited by artists, due to cheap rent, the rustic ambience and close proximity to the city hum. Courtney place, a literal stone thro away. The night before, during a time when I was feeling as if I where a lizard in the process of changing skin. I was three months sober. I women was dragged screaming into the industrial yard out front.

    I was terrified, but knew something had to be done. first I made a pitiful attempt at announcing my presences. Kind of like cough cough… Timid sounding what the hell is going on over there in the pitch black? I was very manning up the best I could. I had no telephone. So I ran out on the street, approached a man in a car, told him what was going on, then told three young well dressed lads on the street that ” there is a women over there being raped”. These three men immediately intervened. I no almost nothing of the outcome other than that there was an arrest and prosecution. The offender and the victim where in there early twenty’s and had been known to one and other. There was a conviction, but I was not called as a witness.

    What I witnessed with my ears, Is just one aspect of rape culture. What I witnessed the man who rang the police on his expensive mobile phone, the three young men who intervened and my own inability to confront the offender directly is another. And the actions of the police, then the response from rape crisis, the justice system, another.

    Then we have tabloid journalism. Please bring me a bucket.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Jason Kemp,

    Also in the Herald today Indecent act man calls in lawyers

    I have only one thought for that man .....
    Diddums

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    then where would YOU put the LINE?

    That is difficult, but I look to the approaches which position the line based on the age of the participants. If someone under 16 is with someone roughly the same age, given or take – one year? two years? a percentage of the age so that the age difference allowed increases as you age? – then there’s a whole lot less likelihood there’s any manipulation or exploitation going on.

    And Sofie, bang on. The piece quotes him as saying ""It has taken away all my livelihood ... Even with name suppression I got fired from a job because a guy had heard it was me," ...He believed he was unfairly targeted because he was a household name."

    This is so particularly frustrating because it's so obvious that the minimal consequences he suffered for his actions weren't enough to make him realise the magnitude of what he's done. He's complaining because he was fired because of what he'd done, and thinks he's been targeted because he's a household name rather than, I don't know... because he assaulted someone? Creep.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 578 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    That is difficult, but I look to the approaches which position the line based on the age of the participants. If someone under 16 is with someone roughly the same age, given or take – one year? two years? a percentage of the age so that the age difference allowed increases as you age? – then there’s a whole lot less likelihood there’s any manipulation or exploitation going on.

    This is it. It takes intelligent conversation to solve complicated problems.

    I sometimes get a bit confused about health and safety policy. I sometimes get hassled for not wearing shoes. The argument is almost always née jerk–safety, end of story. When wearing shoes most of the time is not very healthy.

    I don’t have the communication/research skills, to explain the entire evolution of culture. But one thing I can say is that I do very much appreciate people who do poses academic skills, that use those skill to add parts to the puzzle.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Jason Kemp,

    You may disagree but it does sound like progress. If we make any discussion on this topic an absolute minefield to talk about then no one will.

    Jason:

    With all due and sincere respect, Rodney could have made his points without trolling Maggie Barry whose harassment by Rolf Harris doesn’t actually put her under any special obligation to say or do shit. That’s not progress in my book, Jason. It’s just a more passive-aggressive version of what WhaleOil has done to Tania Billingsley. What ever Bob Jones, JT & Willie and Co. in the media line up to do to harassment and abuse victims (overwhelmingly women) every damn day. It’s just not OK, and frankly I don’t care what Rodney’s “intentions” are.

    Yes ALL men have actually got to learn that we’re not being very good allies when we’re privileging our own speech over (as Emma put it so well) the real experts here. Did Rodney actually stop for even a second and ask himself how Maggie Barry might feel about, in effect, being accused of complicity in every crime this person commits unless she stands up in Parliament and breeches name suppression? (It’s really easy to be brave when it’s other people facing the consequences, isn’t it Rodders?) Did he ever ask himself why Barry – like so many other women over decades – didn’t report her treatment by Harris to anyone?

    I don’t believe he did – and that’s rape culture too, folks. You never put responsibility for stopping abuse on victims, no matter how passive-aggressive or well intentioned you think you’re being about it.

    Any attempt to bring this out to the public arena (and why not close to an Election) is a positive thing. Dam having to tread lightly for some Politicians. Show us the true colours.

    Oh, you mean the politician who talked about her own sleazy harassment at the hands of Rolf Harris, which apparently gives Rodney Hide the right to troll her into breaching name suppression. That's the politician I'm talking about here, Sofie, and she's no less deserving of consideration than Tanya Billingsley, or Jackie Blue, or Sue Bradford and Georgina Beyer.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12363 posts Report Reply

  • Jason Kemp, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Thanks Craig,

    I see where you are coming from. I just thought that the overall tone showed progress as there is a hint of an apology towards Maggie later in the column.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 349 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Jason:

    Thanks reciprocated -- I'm pissed off at those columns NOT even a little bit at everyone here who didn't agree with my read, but genuinely heard and respectfully engaged with it. That's progress.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12363 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    My only complaint, is that you made me read the newspaper on the sund'y morning :)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Oh, you mean the politician who talked about her own sleazy harassment at the hands of Rolf Harris, which apparently gives Rodney Hide the right to troll her into breaching name suppression. That’s the politician I’m talking about here, Sofie,

    NO! I'm talking about a person who I don't like, don't like his writing, don't agree with him most of the time trying to come to terms with understanding what we have been yelling about for fucken ages. His words are his, whether you like them or not, is not justification to stop the conversation he is starting in public. People read the Herald.
    To suggest he ain't allowed to do it his way? Where is the manual? At least he's trying as ugly as it gets.. Barry is capable of telling him to shut up if she wishes. I've seen her tell Ardern to shut up. She has a mouth. She has brought the subject into the light. That may be too harsh for some but I'd be interested to see if we can get some real change from it all. Sorry Craig I disagree, and as a survivor I know how important it is to remain relevant right now. Just my pathetic opinion of course. Gnite.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Just my pathetic opinion of course.

    Not even a micron of pathetic there. And you know, I think you're right -- at least Rodney's "reluctantly" wrapping his brain around this but as long as he has a media platform very people have, I hope he (and his editors at The Herald) are going to be thinking a lot harder about how he uses it.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12363 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald,

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1290 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to steven crawford,

    So how do we use science to reduce the assaults in the first place?

    Ah sorry Steven I got that completely wrong.

    The key for me is that I do NOT have the necessary knowledge. On this subject I am ignorant. I have read some general stuff from purely the sake of interest. But that in no way replaces a real deep knowledge of the field.

    There are however many genuine experts in the field, so first up, I would track them down and ask them what they believe the evidence shows will work.

    I would then enact their best ideas (probably several different at the same time) for approaches and then I would make sure we have a stable monitoring system so we can see what works and what doesn't.

    From what I have read, one thing stands out. In every study I have seen the likelyhood of committing a crime decreases with the likelyhood of being caught. There is no correlation with punishment (within the ranges of all reasonable punishments). So to me that suggests we should focus on making sure rapists are caught and convicted. We should not focus on sentencing at all. The original poster's story strongly suggests there is a real problem with the way police handle rape complaints and there statistics also suggest that there is a problem with the way our legal system handle rape cases (the later is the subject of a law commission review).

    So for me, I think, I would want to see changes to police policy and perhaps a special rape court with different rules. BUT I am NOT an expert and I would defer to real experts. This might be the wrong place to start , it may be better to start in primary school, or on TV, or on billboards, there are people with more knowledge than I who can and should make the call.

    How do we use science to solve the problem?

    We get knowledge, we get evidence (not anecdotes), we hypothesize solutions, we conduct the experiments, we observe the results, and continue the cycle.

    The hard part is conducting the experiments because these are real people we are trying things out on (but frankly it's hard to see how we could do worse) and because it requires money and change. In particular it requires change from two groups that are very resistant to change, the police and the legal system.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4374 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Ah sorry Steven I got that completely wrong.

    No need to apologise. And I have to reiterate. I am dyslexic; and other complicating factors make some of my comments a little ambiquis. I am working on it:)

    From what I have read, one thing stands out. In every study I have seen the likelyhood of committing a crime decreases with the likelyhood of being caught. There is no correlation with punishment (within the ranges of all reasonable punishments). So to me that suggests we should focus on making sure rapists are caught and convicted. <unishment (within the ranges of all reasonable punishments). So to me that suggests we should focus on making sure rapists are caught and convicted.

    I agree, and the data shows a not particularly high recidivist rate once detected.

    We should not focus on sentencing at all.

    One of the symptoms of Complex PTSD is a preoccupation with seeking retribution. I am not saying that PTSD is what uniformly happens to victims of sexual violence. Just that, there is therapeutic value for some victims of violence, when the perpetrator is given some sort of consequence.

    The recovery process for the victim, (which I have a vested interest) could/should not happen in isolation. I see the rehabilitation of the community; which lets get real, is a bit sick, is shared by both the offenders, victims and all shades of gray.

    But Like every single aspect of this, because it is as personal as it gets, the emotions can challenge very rational minds indeed.

    I think I might be on the same page Bart, I consider myself to be a bystander in this. Despite harboring some of my own grizzly experiences, I can’t profess to understand somebody’s else’s outlook on life. But like you, I want to do what I am able. Not just because I have a fourteen year old daughter, to empathize with, and protect.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to steven crawford,

    there is therapeutic value for some victims of violence, when the perpetrator is given some sort of consequence.

    Oh yes, definitely. There is also a need to have sentences in line with similar violence. What I wanted to say was that increasing sentences does not reduce the criminal activity.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4374 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to steven crawford,

    I see the rehabilitation of the community; which lets get real, is a bit sick, is shared by both the offenders, victims and all shades of gray.

    While I commented on the criminality, I really want reiterate, I am not an expert in this. It really may not be the best solution to focus heavily on the crime of rape, it may well turn out to be much more productive to focus elsewhere.

    I don't have the knowledge to make an informed guess. There IS a huge problem with our culture, it will take much more than focusing on the crime only to change the culture in a way that will get us rape-free.

    But we have examples where culture can change, making things that used to be casually acceptable, completely abhorrent. Slavery, public flogging, comic sans are things that used to be common and for many people a society without them was inconceivable.

    I think it will take many different approaches, some with fail, some will do less than we hope. It will cost money, our tax dollars. It will cost political capital, yes the mean boys will tease you for caring.

    But just think about what it might mean for us to be able to say there is no rape here any more.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4374 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Oh yes, definitely. There is also a need to have sentences in line with similar violence. What I wanted to say was that increasing sentences does not reduce the criminal activity.

    It’s like when Judith Collins upped the sentence for carrying a knife from two years up to three, because some case came up on mourning TV or something or another. I kind of freaked out and stopped taking my knife to the football after that;/)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    In particular it requires change from two groups that are very resistant to change, the police and the legal system.

    So, how do we change these two groups?

    Our family used to watch the telly news and hear complaints about the police and the legal system and actually, to our shame, tended to sympathise with the poor hard working copper and the overloaded court system.

    Dear oh dear how a couple of incidents can change one's opinion.

    The police? Either stupid or corrupt, or most likely a combination of the two...with a large dose of arrogance to make them truly dangerous. We will NEVER trust them again. Ever.

    The Court/Justice system. A lottery. What can I say, I got a Judge with an operating bullshit detector...so many others have gone to jail innocent. Others get judges who MUST be corrupt, or members of the same peadophile ring or some damn thing because for the life of me I cannot find any justification for the sentences they hand down nor the comments they make.

    And we all know which ones I'm referring to.

    How to change this so we can have confidence in these agencies?

    Hold them up to REAL scrutiny. Hold them accountable when they get it wrong.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1290 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    I don’t have the knowledge to make an informed guess. There IS a huge problem with our culture, it will take much more than focusing on the crime only to change the culture in a way that will get us rape-free.

    I do have the knowledge to help make a hypothethis, but I don't have the skills to articulate it, all that well, which Is frustrating.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Others get judges who MUST be corrupt, or members of the same peadophile ring or some damn thing because for the life of me I cannot find any justification for the sentences they hand down nor the comments they make.

    What they hand down is the status quo. If a case of similar occurrence has been handed down, A Judge will follow suit because a Lawyer could appeal if a case gets a harsher or easier determination and that's all money. A Judge can't be going "I think I'll change things today, I'm feeling generous" Some of the words they use I think can be questionable myself but that should be the Lawyers job to take up if they think the Judge is out of line. Police are the biggest gang in NZ and I feel it's almost a hive mind that exists amongst them. We are finally getting an increase in complaints about fellow Police whereas in the past everyone covered for each other. We are only just now holding Police to account for their sexism. I think we have Louise Nicholas to thank there. Progress is that she now works with the Police so that's change. Sadly it's not moving fast enough as always. One thing I notice and it hasn't really changed in my experience is, female cops are the worst. Like they have something to prove. Some real bitches.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Maybe a commission, that enlists a broad spectrum of society to help, because there is such a broad spectrum of effect and affect( think I got that right). We might then develop a contemporary education policy. Creative NZ could fund projects in collaboration with the commission to show us what we are soaking in.

    I know it’s been done, but not well enough maybe.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    I think we have Louise Nicholas to thank there

    Heartbreaking to see the look on her face when the police buggered up the Roastbusters case. All those years trying to get justice, then she voluntarily enters the lions' den to try and educate....then realises nothing much has changed. Just a fleeting look...but spoke volumes.


    ."....that should be the Lawyers job to take up if they think the Judge is out of line."

    Seems to me that nobody is expected to do their job properly anymore.
    No real expectations.
    No responsibility.
    No accountability.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1290 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Seems to me that nobody is expected to do their job properly anymore.No real expectations.No responsibility.No accountability.

    No funding. All the funding for Legal aid was slashed. No funding = no representation.
    Our rights are being systematically undermined . Our rights in the Courts are being eroded. Our Democracy is disappearing.
    I must admit ,it was refreshing to see a win for Arthur Taylor on prisoner voting rights. This from the Greens. Collins again with absolute disregard for human beings.
    And for all the Lawyers out there, it took a prisoner from a jail cell to stick it to National.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

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