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Speaker: Not even a statistic

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  • Hilary Cameron, in reply to Jackie Clark,

    Yes, this. So much this.

    I've always had this thing where I just love night-time. I especially love running alone at night in the dark. I've never felt scared, maybe because I grew up on a farm where the same perceived dangers just are not there. Or whatever. I actually had a friend at uni once who asked me "So, do you have some thing where you want to be raped?" because I didn't see an issue with cutting through the same gardens in the dark as we did in the day. It's moments like this that have made me so aware of the societal expectation that we should be afraid, like it is a duty to ourselves to be, and that pisses me off.

    The thing is even though the realisation hasn't lead to me being more cautious or fearful, it has made me so much more aware that this thing I do that I love I do at my own "peril". I'm forced to accept that the price I pay is that if something were to happen to me, there'd be far, far more blame apportioned to me for not "being responsible" than the offender. That makes me really fucking angry.

    Christchurch • Since May 2013 • 15 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Jackie Clark,

    Clarification would be good, on what you mean.

    No problem, Jacks. But which part? I don't want to be writing essays on this thread.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10504 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    That the perpetrator is seen as someone who cannot be changed, and therefore the victim is always at fault.

    This is rape culture. In centuries past, the perp/s would have been called a conqueror/s. Victim blaming is a crime. Thank you Katrina you are incredibly brave.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1659 posts Report Reply

  • Jesse Easton,

    Thanks for your brave post Katrina.

    Carterton • Since Nov 2006 • 8 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    look what happened when Cunliffe apologised. Reading comments in different places as well as here. he was belittled

    Which is yet another example of the rape culture in which we exist.

    But is the teasing of the mean boys really going to be enough to make Labour back off?

    Making New Zealand rape-free is a good thing, no teasing should be enough to stop them and us.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4374 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Making New Zealand rape-free is a good thing, no teasing should be enough to stop them and us.

    While I do respect your sentiment, Bart. I really do hope you are, at some stage, going to apply your scientific mind to this.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to steven crawford,

    While I do respect your sentiment, Bart. I really do hope you are, at some stage, going to apply your scientific mind to this.

    What on Earth do you mean, Steven? You're coming across as insulting and offensive.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3884 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Lilith __,

    I don't think Steven meant to be insulting or offensive, but perhaps he could explain.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22293 posts Report Reply

  • WaterDragon, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Just seen your post-we are the experts, recognise our expertise-so yes yes yes yes.
    We' disabled people have been saying this in relation to disability for so many years, with a sad lack of success. Far easier in both instances to listen to the "experts" on the sidelines because, well who knows really?
    But listen to the Emmas . They know whereof they speak.

    Behind you • Since Jul 2011 • 63 posts Report Reply

  • Rebecca Williams,

    I've joined this conversation late but felt compelled to join it ...

    Thank you Danielle, Jackie and Emma for speaking my thoughts, it's such a privilege to know there are women who fully, fully understand and are able to speak.

    It's also a great privilege to have anything to do with men who are able to engage with this conversation. It's courageous and worthwhile and I appreciate it. Just don't be surprised if they screw up a bit along the way. They've been swimming in rape culture since they were born, same as us.

    Thank you Katrina. In the absence of a national dialogue about this, you are contributing to starting one as far as I'm concerned.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 120 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Lilith __,

    What on Earth do you mean, Steven?

    My guess is that I have consciously focused on men raping women in my comments. I do recognise that women are capable of similar violence and that men are also rape victims (from both men and women). But in the interests of addressing the largest portion of the problem first, rather than trying to solve the whole problem at once in all it's diversity, I will continue to focus my thinking and comments on changing society in a way that make men less likely to rape.

    My guess is that if we get that right the other rapes will also be reduced and having got to that point we can refocus on the remaining problems.

    However, for a (male) victim, that stance must be very painful and for that I'm deeply sorry.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4374 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Adam Bennett wades in to give Samuels shitstirring space. Is Bennett aspiring to be Patrick Gower? This is the type of crap that everyone needs to get through first. I've met Samuels and the man is not one.The likes of him make it very hard to progress with much needed reform.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    .... changing society in a way that make men less likely to rape.

    ....and this will be done how?

    While those who are the predominant victims of rape are trying to stay safe/ survive/protect one another, each in our own way, it would be really useful to have a discussion on how exactly society needs to change " in a way that makes men less likely to rape.""

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1293 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    If there was video evidence of an assault of a sexual nature on a child….under the age of legal consent…why in god’s name was there a trial? Surely, in a civilised society, such evidence would be sufficient to spare the victim from inquisition?

    All the rapist has to do is plead "not guilty" and it goes to trial. That simple. And hopefully something that will never change, because down that path lie many bad things.
    The "inquisition", however, needs to change. All of the things said about the inadequacy of the judicial system once a rape charge is in progress are true.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4091 posts Report Reply

  • kmont, in reply to BenWilson,

    Hi Ben, this is such a great conversation I am enjoying the respect and care that is being shown.

    Just wanted to shout out to you in particular I remember ages ago commenting on here and sometimes finding the way you were coming across a bit 'challenging' I feel like you have really evolved in the way that you engage in these convos. I hope that doesn't sound patronising, it really isn't intended to be. Just wanted you to know that from my perspective you are 'doing it right'.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    I'd start with education at a very young age. I mean preschool. I think Labour advocate that in their Policy. I have to run but may get back on this later. Ciao

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    My guess is that I have consciously focused on men raping women in my comments. I do recognise that women are capable of similar violence and that men are also rape victims (from both men and women). But in the interests of addressing the largest portion of the problem first, rather than trying to solve the whole problem at once in all it’s diversity, I will continue to focus my thinking and comments on changing society in a way that make men less likely to rape.

    No, that is definitely not what I meant. What I meant is that Bart, has the academic skills to actually do something meaningful here. We could talk about how awful sexual violence is. No! We already know its awful. So at some point, the anger needs to turn to action.

    I think there is a scientific solution to this. I, as some people might have realised, am also an expert. And, I am trying to understand the drivers.

    Judith Herman wrote the book “trauma and recovery” in 1992. This was a serious scientific approach to the problem, which has led to some sustained improvement. But, the science has improved. The DSM, now contains, Post traumatic stress disorder (complex) which has a treatment derived from Herman’s work.

    Ok, so there is a tiny introduction to how science can help victims of sexual violence. So how do we use science to reduce the assaults in the first place?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    And hopefully something that will never change, because down that path lie many bad things.

    I get this...the" bad things" that can happen to an innocent person falsely accused of sexually assaulting a child can be grave, even fatal. I have knowledge of two such cases...one involving a schoolteacher, who, by the time one of his accusers had the guts to break ranks and confess that it was all about revenge for him catching them smoking at school, was dead. It was his word against theirs. No evidence was needed to investigate or charge him, and it was before the courts before this 15 year old finally told the truth.

    In the case described by Abbie....the evidence was there. The victim was under the age of consent....end of story....surely?

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1293 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    the evidence was there. The victim was under the age of consent….end of story….surely?

    That the jury actually had to have a discussion after seeing the evidence says it's not the end of the story. It says everything about the problem that this thread is discussing.

    To deem that a trial is unnecessary because the evidence is apparently a slam-dunk is the path to many bad things that have nothing to do with sexual assaults, but we don't need to go that far to address some of the current problems with how sexual assault trials are conducted.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4091 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh,

    ETA: This probably needs a trigger alert, sorry. Young woman brutally assaulted after accepting a ride home late at night. Cue the victim blaming. And the racism, too, probably. Still a lot of work to be done.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2384 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    In the case described by Abbie….the evidence was there. The victim was under the age of consent….end of story….surely?

    Just to note, 12-15, it's unlawful sexual connection. For a rape charge, which carries higher penalties, you have to prove he didn't have consent.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4620 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Correction on my part. Complex PTST, was not excepted into the DSM5 after all. But the concept is used by clinicians regardless.

    And to clarify my interpretation of expert, is that expert is code for: ” this is not just theoretical for me”

    And one last thing. Seen as how no one seems to want to offer any science to the thread right now, I don’t know what to say. Could there be some sort of religious solution?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    I find that sometimes it’s better to look offshore for my science.

    “Conservative estimates of sexual assault prevalence suggest that 25 percent of American women have experienced sexual assault, including rape. Approximately one-half of those cases involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, victim, or both. Alcohol contributes to sexual assault through multiple pathways, often exacerbating existing risk factors. Beliefs about alcohol’s effects on sexual and aggressive behavior, stereotypes about drinking women, and alcohol’s effects on cognitive and motor skills contribute to alcohol-involved sexual assault. Despite advances in researchers’ understanding of the relationships between alcohol consumption and sexual assault, many questions still need to be addressed in future studies.”

    But who would have thought, we have not been totally ignorant?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3869 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Just to note, 12-15, it’s unlawful sexual connection. For a rape charge, which carries higher penalties, you have to prove he didn’t have consent.

    "Rape", "unlawful sexual connection"... is there any difference? Really?

    Especially when we're talking about a child....under the age of consent...and a MUCH older offender.

    There is a LINE. Surely to god in this circumstance "consent", even if it were given, is meaningless as the victim here cannot give consent....she/he is too young.

    That's surely why the LINE was put there.

    And if anyone suggests the LINE is an artificial contruct....that, say a 15 year old CAN give consent to sexual activity.....then where would YOU put the LINE?

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1293 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Here's a great example of the wider rape culture in action, looking after one of their own (hats off to the ODT for both giving us the search terms and telling us it is legal to use them).

    I can see why Maggie Barry seems unlikely to use her parliamentary privilege here, so close to an election I bet as soon as Rodney made his suggestion she got a call from NP head office.

    The edit history on the perp in question's Wikipedia page makes for fun reading

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2559 posts Report Reply

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