Speaker by Various Artists

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Speaker: Not even a statistic

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  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    http://blog.greens.org.nz/2014/07/17/in-defence-of-strong-women-and-freedom-of-speech/

    Yep, I'd go along with that Jan,

    "So many of our community organisations have been silenced by gagging clauses in their contracts, or just by the knowledge that some organisations have lost funding for doing too much advocacy."

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1269 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    comic sans

    vindication at last

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    evidence (not anecdotes)

    I have a lot of respect for the mental health advocate who told me "what we need more of is practice-based evidence, not evidence-based practice". She meant respecting what people with actual experience of mental illness say. Not just those who have read textbooks or been paid to do their jobs in the field.

    Stories are a universal human form of knowledge. Context is important, but experimental replication is not everything. Nothing personal but we do not solve social problems by asking people who know molecular chemistry, etc. And if I want to know about science, I probably won't ask a social policy analyst.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Sacha,

    But molecular scientists are part of society, social problem are best solved by people, not titles.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3798 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to steven crawford,

    and society is made of energy

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Sacha,

    Edit: sorry Sacha, that last comment was still under construction

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3798 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I can relate

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Just to avoid misunderstanding, are you a policy analyst, Sacha?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3798 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to steven crawford,

    recovering

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Sacha,

    I have a lot of respect for the mental health advocate who told me “what we need more of is practice-based evidence, not evidence-based practice”. She meant respecting what people with actual experience of mental illness say. Not just those who have read textbooks or been paid to do their jobs in the field.

    This is interesting. What was the outcome of that?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3798 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Sacha,

    Nothing personal but we do not solve social problems by asking people who know molecular chemistry, etc. And if I want to know about science, I probably won’t ask a social policy analyst

    O, sorry about the slow uptake. I get it now.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3798 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Sacha,

    She meant respecting what people with actual experience

    Ask a child, taken into care because of violence in the home, what they feel, what they want....

    They will talk about the anger and frustration that is always simmering, always a look away. One wrong move.....one more can of beer.

    Fear is what they feel, feeling safe is what they want.

    And they want the grown ups to sort their shit out.

    But the grown ups don't/can't/won't.

    So the child grows up to be frustrated and angry. And on we go.

    Now, the social scientists will call that anecdotal...not evidence based research..can't form a policy without data.

    More statistics.

    We have enough of those.

    How do rape survivors want to be treated? What do they need to feel able to heal?

    Ask offenders why they do it. What do they need in order to change.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1269 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Ask offenders why they do it. What do they need in order to change.

    Which brings us back to the good idea, that detection is one reasonable deterrent. In order to talk to offenders, we need to know who they are. The perpetrators victims can identify them. But that’s if they recognize after the fact that what happened was in fact rape, and or they are able to escape the attacker, and or the consequence of reporting isn’t going to lead to further trauma ( psychological and/or physical). Loss of lively hood, social position, pet cat…

    Detection ought to be assisted by the community, including our brightest minds, and the dimmest of bulbs.

    PS: I am aware that my small group of theatrical scenarios are just that, My intention for speaking, is intended to be supportive. So I invite stern feedback if I got it wrong.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3798 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Sacha,

    Nothing personal but we do not solve social problems by asking people who know molecular chemistry, etc.

    No offence taken at all. I know I'm ignorant on this.

    I understand the point about practice based evidence, it is really important to listen to patients. For me the issue with evidence as the driver is that with evidence you end up doing what actually works instead of what you want to work.

    In an issue like this with many causes and many solutions it is really easy to be drawn into an ideological solution, commit to that and then fail to notice that it isn't working. Or fail to notice that something that didn't fit your ideology is working better. That for me, is the value of evidence, it allows you to do what works and to stop doing what doesn't work.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4321 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to steven crawford,

    PS: I am aware that my small group of theatrical scenarios are just that,

    Rape on the stage, comic musical theatre from the 50s. Repopularised by the now outed dirty old man Rolf Harris in the 70s.

    http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiMADERA.html

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1269 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Rape on the stage, comic musical theatre from the 50s. Repopularised by the now outed dirty old man Rolf Harris in the 70s.

    I guess there was a kind of inevitability at work there, as Harris essentially reworked the fag-end of vaudeville and the music hall tradition into a TV career. There were still a few "lightning sketch artists" around in my distant childhood, who'd emerge from retirement to enliven small-town variety shows. Then suddenly there was this doofus on TV acting like he'd invented it.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4485 posts Report Reply

  • Daniel Wilton, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Ask offenders why they do it. What do they need in order to change

    I would hazard a guess that most young men do not actually know what rape is, both the legal definition and (sorry to put my foot in my mouth here) those who victims definition.

    Before I sat on that jury of the rape trial. I knew what theft was, what drink driving was, what was deemed to be assault but I had never been taught the legal definitions surrounding sexual violence.

    After the recent Cunliffe apology, someone said in the pub that they weren't a rapist or an abuser. So I asked them how they knew that? I asked whether or not they could confirm that they had consent from all of their previous sexual partners. I noticed a few guys in the group move uncomfortably in their seats before some tried to move on to the next point.

    There needs to be more conversation about this topic in schools, and teaching people how to respect each other and how not to become someone's rapist

    Wellington • Since Jan 2009 • 50 posts Report Reply

  • Angela Hart,

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/10304939/Father-jailed-for-raping-daughter

    "Defence lawyer Steven Zindel argued there was little or no impact on the 4 year old victim and there was no coercion.

    "There's not the coercion, I know that is because she is young. There is also no immediate effect on her."

    WTF! I thought Rosemary was a little hard on the legal profession, but no, she's right.

    Christchurch • Since Apr 2014 • 608 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Angela Hart,

    “Defence lawyer Steven Zindel argued there was little or no impact on the 4 year old victim and there was no coercion.

    “There’s not the coercion, I know that is because she is young. There is also no immediate effect on her.”

    WTF! I thought Rosemary was a little hard on the legal profession, but no, she’s right.

    That’s on the same wavelength as that case where the defence lawyer Keith Jefferies said the victim should have “kept her legs closed”. The kind of guy who says "do as I say, not as I do".

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5278 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh,

    Um, so, Rodney Hide's latest column... this does seem to be quite an interesting evolution, at least in his public persona. And he starts with a combination of three words that is most rare in our political "leaders":

    I was wrong

    And he doesn't seem to be blaming Cunliffe for his ignorance, either.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2379 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    “Defence lawyer Steven Zindel argued there was little or no impact on the 4 year old victim and there was no coercion.

    “There’s not the coercion, I know that is because she is young. There is also no immediate effect on her.”

    WTF! I thought Rosemary was a little hard on the legal profession, but no, she’s right.

    That’s on the same wavelength as that case where the defence lawyer Keith Jefferies said the victim should have “kept her legs closed”. The kind of guy who says ”do as I say, not as I do”.

    To me this is why the way we try rape cases must change. Because as it stands lawyers are obliged to pollute the court with this crap to protect their client.

    With a different structure it might be possible for lawyers to defend the facts of the case without resorting to the behaviour that results in reasonably minded people to consider them to be scum (mostly they aren't scum, they just know behaving like scum helps their client).

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4321 posts Report Reply

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