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Speaker: Talking past each other: Ideological silos and research

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  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Attachment

    show some guts flora…

    You don’t want me to tell you what I thought of your throwaway post about obesity being contagious, in all honesty.

    I don’t see anything throwaway about that post, it is valid speculation (and I heard a similar dismissive attitude from renowned microbiologist/actor Peter Elliott on today’s RNZ The Panel – NB description contains sarcasm).
    We are only just scratching the surface of our synergetic and symbiotic interactions/communications with ‘our’ microbiomes and microbiota and the affect it has on many of our functions – we sure as hell can’t function properly without it/their massive contribution to digestion (gut flora and fauna) and all over the body – they help synthesise enzymes the body can’t, recent research has indicated they can affect moods and and even myelin production, they have a hot line to the brain via the gut brain, parasympathetic system and the vagus nerve.
    Other research shows we share and pass on these ‘tenants’.
    Who is to say that decades of antibacterial dosing and intensification of uptake of short chain soluble carbohydrates (sugar) hasn’t changed the make up of our hidden inner society, resulting in a predisposition to accreting adipose tissue, and intolerance?

    some follow up introductory reading :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut%E2%80%93brain_axis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microbiota

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbiota

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/neurophilosophy/2016/apr/05/gut-bacteria-brain-myelin

    http://elifesciences.org/content/2/e00458

    http://microbiomejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40168-014-0052-7

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7892 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Sacha,

    we is human

    actually, I think we is colonies,
    some of which is human

    we have met the enemy though
    and it is us, largely...

    :- )

    (see above)

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7892 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I think it’s sad that a discussion about public health has turned into personal attacks.

    Me too. One thing I have noticed is that, because many interact with other forms of communication, it seems like ye ol' (and I'm not being racist!) Chinese whispers by the time contributions get back to the thread of topic. When one doesn't get to see one's face, look a person in the eyes, glasses ,patch, whatever, one can only take written comments as they feel like taking them, not needing to try understand how , who or what is being said and perfect English may not be that person's first language . The number of factors that go into people having what boils down to an open public conversation with strangers on a very personal level is not that easy for all to get on the same page . I think what fucks it up is the whole "you're wrong, I'm right" . We don't get to be either all the time so maybe agreeing to disagree could dampen the animosity. None of us is perfect.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Rebecca Gray,

    I’m doing the virtual internet equivalent of popping back into the room in order to throw you a high five for that earlier comment, and then running away.

    Yes, gotta say, linger gets it. :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Here is a link to the lecture at Victoria University last week "Is there an appetite for a sugar tax in NZ?"

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3203 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    One thing I have noticed is that, because many interact with other forms of communication

    And we regularly seem to get a couple of pages of "but you said on Yabber", "she started it with what she said on Fugwob" nonsense that possibly makes sense to the three people having this cross-media battle, but just pollutes the discussion for everyone else. And often in a derailing way. Fuxake people, pick a venue and have it out, then leave it there.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1198 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Moz,

    we regularly seem to get a couple of pages of “but you said on Yabber”, “she started it with what she said on Fugwob”

    I'm certainly not interested in that either, for the record, WHICH IS WHY I DON'T LINK MY SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTS HERE.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    “Is there an appetite for a sugar tax in NZ?”
    It wasn't so long ago there was an appetite for a 'fat tax'. lets call it an oil tax just to avoid offending fat people. The problem with oil tax is that we need oil to live. So taxing oil is a bit unfair to people who don't have much money.

    I get the taxing tobacco and alcohol as an incentive to not buying it. But taxing oil is tricky.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Moz,

    but just pollutes the discussion for everyone else. And often in a derailing way. Fuxake people, pick a venue and have it out, then leave it there.

    That would be good.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Latest offence taking breaking "News"
    Farmers apologises for 'hurt and offence' of Mother's Day email

    "Your mother sent us her wish list".

    I clicked on it expecting to see something like "I wish I hadn't died" but it just turned out to be some kind of promo for that Mother exploiting sales day..
    Do these copy writing people ever consider anything that is not about them or their tiny world?.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Russell Brown,

    pick a venue and have it out, then leave it there.

    That would be good.

    I have to admit I don't feel comfortable (safe) knowing that discussions about the discussion are going on elsewhere.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4451 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I have to admit I don’t feel comfortable (safe) knowing that discussions about the discussion are going on elsewhere.

    Its a shame but there always has been and always will be people that will talk behind your back, I think it comes from an insecurity thing, if they are too frightened to say it to your face then its not worth taking on board. I kind of pity them and let it be.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Carol Stewart, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I agree, Bart.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2008 • 822 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    I think it comes from an insecurity thing, if they are too frightened to say it to your face then its not worth taking on board. I kind of pity them and let it be.

    A number of women, repeatedly in this thread and elsewhere, have said they no longer feel safe contributing here for a variety of reasons. But no, go ahead and call them chicken and don't bother examining why that might be. That'll totally help.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I have to admit I don’t feel comfortable (safe) knowing that discussions about the discussion are going on elsewhere.

    Thats because it's classic bulling behaviour, when it's intended to exclude and alienate.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Carol Stewart,

    I agree, Bart.

    Yes, I'm sorry Carol. I have had this feedback. Obviously, it would be silly to even try and have a "don't talk about PA outside PA rule", but the element of bad faith in talking smack about individuals grieves me.

    I did invite suggestions the last time a thread melted down like this, but they were so contradictory it was hard to know what to do.

    I do ask that people show respect for each other and assume each other's good faith. It's hard to have something like this work without that basis.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I think it's sad that a discussion about public health has turned into personal attacks.

    Also if anyone wants to talk about ideological silos talking past each other, I think it'd still be a worthwhile discussion. I'd initially understood the food/health policy thing to just be an example of a separate point, but .... well, yeah.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Here is a link to the lecture at Victoria University last week “Is there an appetite for a sugar tax in NZ?”

    Woot! An on-topic comment!

    Thanks Hilary :-)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    We don’t get to be either all the time so maybe agreeing to disagree could dampen the animosity.

    Thanks Sofie. I'd settle for people simply being able to disagree without it going to character. That reliably becomes the opposite of discussion.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Hebe, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    This gut flora stuff is the key to much of us. I'm fascinated by the research.

    Christchurch • Since May 2011 • 2896 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Me preference rather than sugar tax is to regulate the marketing of potentially addictive food configurations and its delivery systems. And to regulate it we would need to have the conversation about what marketing practices need to be stopped.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to ,

    Don’t mean to Offend but your characters appear to be, how shall I put it, large boned?.

    Ah, Steve. Keeping it classy there as usual, I see.

    If you'd like me to say what I say on Twitter about this place here, I'll certainly do it. It's mainly silly gifs and you probably wouldn't enjoy it much, which is why I vent to my *friends*, who are somewhat less likely to make fat jokes at me, treat me like I'm crazy, and call me a coward.

    I was trying, very hard, to keep my points clear and to disagree without this sort of thing. It's something I've always strived for at PA and as I said, I've commented here for nearly ten years. If you consider how I've been treated in this thread appropriate, Russell, then, I dunno. Thanks a lot, I guess?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Danielle,

    Steve’s joke was clearly about all the capital letters your last few posts have been using, but I agree, it was unhelpful. I kind of read past it, otherwise I’d just have deleted it, because I really don’t need it. I’ll delete it after I post this comment. I;m sorry I didn't catch it sooner.

    But please stop saying I called you crazy. I actually did hold off posting the links to the cognitive impairment papers because I was worried about the response. Honest truth. I realise you’ve said some pretty harsh things about that elsewhere – as you are entitled to, and usual, I do my best not to look – but that’s it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Steve, really not helping.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Hebe,

    This gut flora stuff is the key to much of us. I’m fascinated by the research.

    I've been following the microbiome story for a while now, and tweeting most of the links to it that I read.

    It is pretty clear that the science is still in it's infancy and a lot of studies being done are not to a terribly high standard. Jonathan Eisen is someone to follow if you are seriously interested in microbiome science and criticism of the field.

    With that caveat in mind there have been some fascinating studies done in mice that link microbiome to weight gain and weight loss. There have also been interesting studies suggesting the microbiome in mice and humans suffers from jetlag! There are lots of studies showing feacal transplants (sadly the ones delivered to the top of the bowel eewww) can help with some serious chronic illnesses.

    What's relevant to this topic is there have been studies showing the microbiome is pretty dramatically dependent on diet. I don't think anyone is brave enough to conclude (yet) that high-sugar high-processed food diets promote a microbiome that favours weight gain but folks have shown some pretty interesting differences that suggest big changes in the microbiome have correlations with metabolic diseases.

    But all that must be considered with the caveat that the science is new and some of those studies haven't been done by the best groups in the field so may not stand up to replication. Also by their very nature these studies are mostly correlative and do not show cause and effect. Nevertheless most of the folks working in the field say they personally have changed their diet to promote microbiome diversity even when they aren't willing to put anything in a journal paper.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4451 posts Report Reply

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