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Speaker: What goes on tour

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  • Paul Campbell,

    Stephen - well I've been married for 20 years ..... but I have teenaged kids so it's an issue I have thought about/talked to them about recently.

    Yes you need to talk - and at a difficult time when you're both trying to be too cool/not too crass, and are being quite tentative - just the sort of time when misunderstandings are more likely to happen (and add a bit of alcohol ....) - it would be nice to have something better than "let's fuck" - but I do think you have to be direct

    Certainly you do if you're thinking of dating my daughter ....

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2605 posts Report Reply

  • Robyn Gallagher,

    While I agree that this would clear up a hell of a lot of grey area, the reality of it seems like some kinda futuristic Sci-Fi scenario.

    "My dear, my I gently fondle your testicles?"
    "The left one only, please. I don't feel I know you well enough for both."

    Raglan • Since Nov 2006 • 1946 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    there you go - someone can do way better than "let's fuck"

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2605 posts Report Reply

  • Hadyn Green,

    Can we accept that women quite properly leap to the aid of their sisters and men to defend their brothers.

    Nope, in another high profile rape case in the States (the details of which escape me now), women tended to believe the accused (men), while men tended to believe the accuser (woman).

    wow I wrote that badly.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    I don't believe that this is any kind of exoneration but is it something to consider? Is it accidental rape?

    I think mutual drunkenness is a really, really tricky one. The trick, really, is to be aware of the situation before you go into it. Like Paul suggests: get full verbal assent before starting anything, and make sure your partner understands that they are under no obligation to do anything.

    I realise this all makes sex sound really staid and boring, and is also hard to apply to drunken fumbles, but you've got to try and set some sort of guidelines. I just don't think there are a lot of hard and fast answers here. Or at least not any I can articulate.

    (I just realised I was assuming that there were no "young folk" here, sorry to offend, I'll get back to my zimmer frame)

    You are all kinda old here, I had noticed. ;)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    yes it is - I think that if you don't you leave yourself open to misunderstandings and you may commit rape without realising it - you need assent from your partner (as does he/she from you).

    I don't entirely agree with this.

    I'd like to think that consent is more readily communicated and understood within a relationship (perhaps not always) however it almost certainly isn't with someone you hardly know and under the influence of booze. In these instances, and god knows how many relationships start in this fashion, any doubt ought to cool your ardour.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    And it is actually the opening scene of Cherry 2000. The story of which involves a man discovering that a real woman is better than a robot. I'm not sure if that's relevant to this or not.

    I think it's relevant because (a) it's a fantastic, fun movie featuring a kickass performance from a very hot leads Melanie Griffith and David Andrews, and (b) it highlights the IMHO nonsensical aspects of such explicit pre-sex act verbal negotiation and assent-reaching as Paul is touting.

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 355 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    As a heterosexual male I agree with Craig.

    Are you seriously not seeing the difference here between me claiming to take responsibility for your personal sexuality and my statement about the way society in general seems to view women and sex?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    featuring a kickass performance from a very hot leads Melanie Griffith and David Andrews

    Whoops, sub-editing FAIL. I was originally just exhorting the hawtness of David Andrews, when I realised that Melanie Griffith fair sizzles as well. Oh well.

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 355 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    And it is actually the opening scene of Cherry 2000. The story of which involves a man discovering that a real woman is better than a robot. I'm not sure if that's relevant to this or not.

    The career of Melanie Griffith (Film debut -- Body Double, exhibit A for the case that if Brian De Palma isn't a misogynistic freak, he does a damn good impersonation of one) is right in meta-textual irony, but not strictly pertinent to the matter in hand.

    Are you asking 18 year olds to that or us? Because if you want youth to do it, I think you've got a heck of a task.

    Well, Haydin, there's part of me that says the human libido is proof that God exists, and she has a very black sense of humour because if , somewhere along the line, arousal makes fools of us all. The question is whether we're players in a tragedy or a bedroom farce. And in my book, anyone who says they have no regrets in life is either a saint or a stone-cold liar. I don't know any saints.

    But even when I've got my old fogey cardigan on, I find it pretty hard to get down on da yoof. Just look at the endless mixed messages they get from us alleged grown-ups -- we worship youth on the one hand, and hate and fear the young on the other. We've created a hyper-sexualised culture and throw up our hands in horror when our children take it all at face value. The world spins forward, and I'll be damned if I don't feel ever so slightly queasy all the damn time.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    Anyway, who are these assholes that have been heaping blame on the girl in question? I have not been keeping up with this story. And I may have to go back under my rock; the thought of being surrounded by a society full of people who think like this makes me want to cry.

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 355 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    Can we accept that women quite properly leap to the aid of their sisters and men to defend their brothers.

    Nope.

    In fact, I questioned what the hell Graham Henry was thinking when it appeared that he was doing this.

    You ain't my brother when you're acting like an ass.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    Seriously, where has she confirmed that some of the events were non-consensual? I agree it’s hard to sort the rumour from the facts in this one.

    And if she has stated that to the Police, shouldn’t that be enough to press a charge?


    BTW, this brave new world of no mutual drunkenness and filling out consent forms before sex sounds like a pretty horrific one to me.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    I'd like to think that consent is more readily communicated and understood within a relationship (perhaps not always) however it almost certainly isn't with someone you hardly know and under the influence of booze. In these instances, and god knows how many relationships start in this fashion, any doubt ought to cool your ardour.

    Yes, that.

    BTW, this brave new world of no mutual drunkenness and filling out consent forms before sex sounds like a pretty horrific one to me.

    I don't know, this one where drunk sex with strangers is good clean fun and god knows how many unplanned pregnancies, STD infections, and rapes occur because of it is pretty horrific for me. And generally speaking, it's not even going to be risk-taking for good sex.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Hadyn Green,

    In fact, I questioned what the hell Graham Henry was thinking when it appeared that he was doing this.

    I forgot to ask about this, when did it happen because the only coach I heard speak on the matter was Steve Hanson. quite early on he said (to the effect of) "players need to seriously consider the situations they put themselves in".

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    A reasonable compromise might be:

    If the allegations were true then the rugby players should be censored.

    What, not prosecuted?

    In the absence of proof we are better to let matters take their course and wait until a misdemeanor is proved.

    "Misdemeanor". Classy way to talk about rape.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1711 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    when did it happen because the only coach I heard speak on the matter was Steve Hanson

    Friday - NZ Herald; links (and my earlier comment/question) here

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    I don't know, this one where drunk sex with strangers is good clean fun and god knows how many unplanned pregnancies, STD infections, and rapes occur because of it is pretty horrific for me. And generally speaking, it's not even going to be risk-taking for good sex.

    God yes. The bad, bad, drunken sex. Perhaps future versions of humans will come with (a la Craig) a Libido Killswitch (TM) which will allow us to quell our base urges with one slight digital manouevre.

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 355 posts Report Reply

  • Hadyn Green,

    it's not even going to be risk-taking for good sex.

    Amen. My first drunk sex experience ended up with way too much vomit, but that's a story for another time. (Note: during sex any vomit is too much)

    Although the girl who sold her story said she had the best sex of her life.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB,

    I took Graham Henries reported comments not as support for the English behaviour, or even solidarity for accused "brothers"... but merely not being wanted to be seen as taking shots at them..... Presumably because he wanted to beat them by playing better, rather than because they were under a cloud?

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 887 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    Cmon Idiot, lay off

    "Misdemeanor". Classy way to talk about rape.

    Obviously what was meant was NOT the corrupted legal definition (of an offence of limited seriousness) but the "true" one (plainly and simply, a misdeed).

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 355 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    Henry's going to be criticised whatever he says these days.












    And rightly so too :)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    FletcherB, if that was the case, he should have said a lot less than he did. It's hard to give him the benefit of the doubt based on what he's reported to have said. My own view is that any team that gets themselves into a situation like this ought rethink their post-match plans.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    And if she has stated that to the Police, shouldn’t that be enough to press a charge?

    A statement to the police is not a requirement to arrest and charge someone, though obviously it normally happens and helps the police. Domestic violence in particular for couple of decades now it's been police policy to arrest even if the victim won't make a statement

    But it's also not necessarily enough to press charges. Particularly in a case like this where she might have said something along the lines of "I went back to the hotel with one guy but then I was raped by these others guys here". That's her word against theirs, obviously consenting for something but not consenting to something else. If she's the only witness for the prosecution and the accused all deny it, I'd imagine the police wouldn't be able to build a case.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB,

    (Note: during sex any vomit is too much)

    Not just sex... pretty much any endeavor actually.... except pelicans and helicopters.

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 887 posts Report Reply

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