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Speaker: What goes on tour

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  • simon g,

    If you ever needed convincing of the tragedy that is kiwiblog, the thread on this issue is conclusive proof; imagine the most sexist crap you've ever heard and you pretty much have it. Farrar himself might not be a misogynist, but his mates are.

    God, I just read it. Really nasty. And of course the misogyny is accompanied by an instant, effortless shift to a lynch mob, almost in the same sentence. It's like those Simpsons town meetings:

    "Good bloke ... stupid slag ... she obviously wanted it ... but just in case ... castrate him!"

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1324 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    didn't, because I felt very naive for not thinking about the consequences

    I think that is alot of the problem. I found the lesson learnt becomes extremely valuable for your future and develops those moral obligations you mentioned earlier. Plus educates on the woes of alcohol etc.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Farrar himself might not be a misogynist, but his mates are.

    Paul: Can you please leave me out of that pathology? I sure wouldn't want to see Russell (who I also consider a friend and a honourable and decent man) judged by certain parties hereabouts.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    I have had a wee bit o' experience over the years (and years) and one thing I am well aware of in my more over zealous drinking daze, was ,black out. Didn't even know it had a name but proved time and time again that I couldn't remember. So I accepted full responsibility for my own stupid actions, and, although suspicious of some situations, I knew I had been drunk ,and couldn't remember, therefore noone was to blame but me.

    Word, Sofie. I cringe with shame at some of the incredibly stupid, self-abusive and unsafe things I did while on the juice. And when that includes unprotected sex with strangers while drunk (or at least I presume that when you're too shit faced to remember having sex at all, effective use of condoms probably wasn't involved), I also consider how much worse the consequences could have been in a different time or place.

    In a couple of weeks, I'm going to be chaperoning a posse of younglings to a Film Festival screening of The Adventures of Robin Hood. If it turns out that one of them down the line is gay, 1) I'm going to be so thankful there are drug- and alcohol-free options for them to socialise with other gay youth that sure weren't open to me, and, 2) they're going to be getting the shame-making Big Gay Uncle Craig lecture about respecting themselves, respecting others and not letting anyone pressure them into doing a damn thing to the contrary. And if they fuck up, as they inevitably will, there will always be someone to dish out the appropriate combo of tea, chocolate chip cookies, sage advice, tissues and/or a good hard clout in the ears until some sense coagulates in their damn fool heads.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    they're going to be getting the shame-making Big Gay Uncle Craig lecture about respecting themselves, respecting others and not letting anyone pressure them into doing a damn thing to the contrary.

    Mutatis mutandis, sounds like what I will be doing with my daughters, Craig.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Craig, there is no comparison whatsoever between commenters who habitually dwell on Kiwiblog and those on PA, and you damn well know it. There can always be a few idiots or trolls on any internet forum, since all they need to do is sign in and type, but on Kiwiblog it is not a few, it is not new, and it is not an accident. It is the voice of the Neanderthal right wing blogosphere. Misogyny and all.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1324 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    Craig, there is no comparison whatsoever between commenters who habitually dwell on Kiwiblog and those on PA, and you damn well know it.

    I'm suspecting perhaps we should draw a line between commentators and friends?
    ok those are two very different things

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Craig, there is no comparison whatsoever between commenters who habitually dwell on Kiwiblog and those on PA, and you damn well know it.

    Simon G: I wouldn't waste my piss on Tom Semmens if his head was on fire. While he tones it way down on PA, he's certainly not the most constructive or substantive person out there. And I don't really want to get on this go-round again, but I've writhed through enough toxic waste bullshit from both the rabid right and the loony left that my response is a thoroughly bipartisan FUCK YOU. I don't put either Russell or David Farrar on that particular shitlist, because they're my friends and I am reasonable picky about dropping that particular f-word. And both David and Russell would say I'm not shy about calling them out (both privately and publicly) if I think they're full of crap, and vice versa.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Craig, you're fond of appearing bipartisan, but balance is not a substitute for truth.

    There is no "loony left" equivalent of Kiwiblog, there is no comfortable home for racism, misogyny, and general bigotry, and unless Tom has been cloned a hundred times over, and has been pouring filth on every minority group there is, you're going to have to do a lot better than that. We are talking about a crowd - a LARGE crowd - of people, comfortable in their Kiwiblog sewer, and attracted there by its content. Which is right wing.

    Thing is, I'm quite sure you know there is no equivalence, but you keep pretending there is because ... why? Party politics? Wishful thinking? I genuinely don't know why you do this. You're defending the indefensible by working overtime in the straw factory, and it's a shame.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1324 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    Jackie
    thank you for being so brave to share your story
    it's pretty much never just luck to get out of those kinds of situations, Plenty of women have been caught up in them and some not as cool headed or as brave as you at the time.

    and Julie you are so right what about that poor woman.
    hands up everyone who knows someone who didn't go to the police when they were raped
    so how must she be feeling now , how scared is she now not just from the event but from the media goings on.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Craig, you're fond of appearing bipartisan, but balance is not a substitute for truth.

    Simon g:

    You've presumed to tell me the contents of my own mind.

    You've also, however nicely coded, called me a partisan hack, a liar and an apologist for people I hold in nothing but contempt.

    You want to go for strike three, and really piss me off?

    If you want to talk about the "filth" content on Kiwiblog, then let's have a frank and honest discussion about some of the hyperactive lefty-trolls in those parts. How about some of the rather unpleasant commentators -- and disingenuously hacky posting -- on The Standard? Of course, that doesn't fit with your 'truth' so let's not bother. It's election year, and I guess I've just got to get used to the same old same old where it's always different when your 'side' frolic in the gutter.

    To hell with it.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Craig, I see plenty of partisan hackery at the Standard. I've seen people being one-eyed, or personal, or just wrong.

    What I don't see is racism, bigotry, misogyny etc. But I see that almost every time I visit Kiwiblog (in the comments threads), and I think that's far worse than getting nasty about John Key, or whatever.

    The discussion here began with the crudest misogyny on Kiwiblog, about an alleged rape victim. If that's a staple on the lefty blogs, then they're filth too. I've never seen it. Have you?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1324 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    What I don't see is racism, bigotry, misogyny etc. But I see that almost every time I visit Kiwiblog (in the comments threads), and I think that's far worse than getting nasty about John Key, or whatever.

    Well, Simon, I don't actually think being in public life means you're asking to have a toxic waste pipe lowered over you head by on-line wankers who don't even have the guts to sign their names to their billious ravings. And that applies to Judith Collins as well as Judith Tizzard.

    And IMNSHO both the left and the right need to get their own houses in better order before complaining about the trash on the other side of the street. God know I really want to be proved wrong in my belief that the on-line campaign is going to make 2005 look like a vicarage tea party.

    In the end, if you really think there's an acceptable level of toxic waste in this on-line ecosystem, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. To me, being a little bit racist or misogynistic is like being a little bit pregnant. Like everyone else, I've always got the option of turning my attention elsewhere for the next four to five months.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Good grief ...

    An English rugby official says a rape allegation against four players was "designed to destabilise" the tour - and suggests Kiwis' bitterness at their early exit from the Rugby World Cup might also be a relevant factor.

    The original article is here. The official quoted seems to imply that the police handling of a rape allegation was guided by lingering resentment over a sports result.

    They really do think we're angry little colonials, don't they?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    Just like I did. And I don't believe she deserves the contempt being heaped upon her.

    Yeah, and unfortunately the major thing likely to dissuade her from making a complaint, assuming there's one to be made, is that the English press will doubtless orchestrate a smear campaign in favour of "our poor boys".

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    craig said:

    I've always got the option of turning my attention elsewhere for the next four to five months.

    we all know that isn't true.

    you're drawn here craig, drraaaawwwwnnn heeree.

    heh.

    although... pot. kettle. etc.

    meh.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • Hadyn Green,

    An English rugby official says a rape allegation against four players was "designed to destabilise" the tour - and suggests Kiwis' bitterness at their early exit from the Rugby World Cup might also be a relevant factor.

    I saw this article this morning too and thought "stay classy England". Even if the NZRU were the most depraved organisation on the planet and set-up this whole rape allegation or if the police handled it differently what would be their motivation?

    Last time I looked the teams that knocked out of the World Cup have been France, Australia, France, South Africa, and Australia why would we care about England in regard to the World Cup?

    The English didn't put up much of a fight in Auckland why would we need dirty tactics to beat them? In fact we just trounced them.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • Hadyn Green,

    In fact the more I think about it what a fucking sick thing to say. No wonder the girl doesn't to come forward with a formal complaint can you imagine the shit she'd have to put up with in court?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    Yeah, and unfortunately the major thing likely to dissuade her from making a complaint, assuming there's one to be made, is that the English press will doubtless orchestrate a smear campaign in favour of "our poor boys".

    Probably not unlike the one that's starting to emerge already - although it's been directed so far mostly at our country in general, rather than the girl in particular.

    It's probably worth bearing in mind here that Britain has an appallingly low rate of convictions for rape - 5.6% of cases prosecuted result in conviction. And half of those convictions stem from guilty pleas. It doesn't suggest a particularly enlightened attitude towards victims of rape (alleged or otherwise.)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    They really do think we're angry little colonials, don't they?

    Well, RB, it would be nice if some folks didn't try so damn hard to live down to it all. Remember when the AB's being knocked out of the World Cup lead to a holocaust of national mourning and domestic violence? And don't forget Anton Oliver proving that a little learning can be a very dangerous (and stupid) thing indeed.

    Forget about homoeroticism on the field, what about the big gay circle jerk of jingoistic, hyperbolic sports journalists?

    we all know that isn't true.

    you're drawn here craig, drraaaawwwwnnn heeree.

    Heh... totally fair bitch-slap, che. But there's a lot of political and politics-related bogs that have purged from my RSS feed, and I can't honestly say I'm feeling the loss.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Oh, and after reading a good chunk of the vitriol thrown at Wayne Barnes -- including death threats and rather vile Wiki-vandalism -- I wouldn't be in the least surprised if "angry little colonials" was exactly the image too many folks too away of New Zealand. Then again, perhaps the British not only shouldn't be throwing stones, but should get out the Windowlene and polish their fraking glasshouse. Football hooligans, anyone?

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Hadyn Green,

    Football hooligans, anyone?

    It's always tough on the hooligans when your team isn't in the tournament </nastiness>

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    That quote from Borthwick was from The Independent.
    I expected The Sun or one with a pg 3.

    Make of this what you will
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:England_rugby_training_at_bath_arp.jpg

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Hadyn Green,

    Not all the British scribes are scathing of the girl:

    "If the mildest allegations are true, the actions reveal something seriously amiss in the squad, its attitude, its hierarchy and the way the players are treated,"

    And that was Stephen Jones

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    The way the players are treated?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

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