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Speaker: What goes on tour

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  • Paul Campbell,

    Shep - I'm confused - are you proposing more drunks in bars?

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • Hadyn Green,

    It's so cool that all the ideas being discussed here are what I left out on purpose hoping they'd be discussed.

    I'd be angry if the All Blacks were to act like this on tour. They'd be representing their country, and I wouldn't expect them to celebrate a defeat with binge drinking and dubious sexual behaviour.

    Dan Carter and Ali Williams were two of the All Blacks also drinking at the Pony Club with the English players. Both have said they will cooperate fully with the police if asked to.

    Do we all recall Dan's infamous cell phone photos with young ladies in London when he was meant to be in Cardiff? While it was a bit of a slap on the wrist nobody asked what happened after the photos (except maybe his girlfriend).

    The Duke lacrosse team also threw up some interesting dynamics. University groups and academics at the school assumed the team were guilty and vilified them.

    I heard about the resolution because I'm a bit of ESPN sportscenter/PTI junkie

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    Kyle,

    I added in the “ex” boyfriend in jest. He was the current boyfriend as of the night in question.

    And I’m picking he wasn’t too happy at finding out his girlfriend preferred the romantic company of big men with no necks and cauliflower ears.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Hadyn Green,

    Should women be more wary of the situation with rugby players (or sportspeople) than with other guys? Probably not.

    There's something to do with chemicals and biology here. More athletic looking men are more attractive to women, but have more testosterone which can make them more aggressive.

    The girl didn't have to be more wary of the men just because they were rugby players, but she needed to be aware of the situation as a whole. As soon as she didn't want to be in the situation and made it known to the others then the responsibility to stop is not with her but with the players.

    Whether her ex-boyfriend told her to go to the hospital and the police is a red-herring. Whether anyone else sold their story is also irrelevant.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I added in the “ex” boyfriend in jest. He was the current boyfriend as of the night in question.

    And I’m picking he wasn’t too happy at finding out his girlfriend preferred the romantic company of big men with no necks and cauliflower ears.

    Well hopefully the police will find out what actually happened.

    But the fact that his girlfriend was cheating on him, doesn't change whatever did or didn't happened at the hotel.

    If I was in the situation that the boyfriend was in, I'd probably be single in pretty short order. But I'd still take her to the hospital and the police if she said that her cheating turned into being raped. That's not necessarily revenge, that's humanity.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Carolyn Skelton,

    I am curious as to the accuracy of the reports that the alleged victim’s boyfriend encouraged her to go to the police.

    I have been reading some of the online rugby forums, and have been amazed at how quickly the “lying slut’s jealous boyfriend made allegations of rape” has become the dominant version circulating online and in some sections of the media. (Though a version that has been contested by some rugby fans who refused to rush to judgement either way).

    As far as I’m aware, it was The Daily Mail that first published the story that it was the boyfriend who went to the police. I haven’t seen or heard anything about a boyfriend in the statements made by the police. They have stressed that it was the 18 year old alleged victim that made the allegation.

    Is this yet another case of a newspaper publishing an unfounded report, with other media repeating it without checking its validity?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 39 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    More athletic looking men are more attractive to women, but have more testosterone which can make them more aggressive.

    I am catching a noisome whiff of evolutionary psychology...

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    __I'd be angry if the All Blacks were to act like this on tour. They'd be representing their country, and I wouldn't expect them to celebrate a defeat with binge drinking and dubious sexual behaviour.__

    Dan Carter and Ali Williams were two of the All Blacks also drinking at the Pony Club with the English players. Both have said they will cooperate fully with the police if asked to.

    Do we all recall Dan's infamous cell phone photos with young ladies in London when he was meant to be in Cardiff? While it was a bit of a slap on the wrist nobody asked what happened after the photos (except maybe his girlfriend).

    There surely a line that separates (a) consenting adults from enjoying, directly or vicariously, the trappings of celebrity and (b) sexual abuse. It might not be clear and is easily blurred through the application of alcohol but I agree with RB; I'd be more than a little disappointed in the ABs if they crossed this line. I'm sure there's a down side of celebrity, and I know they're no more worthy simply because they're bloody good a sport, but they are role models (often well paid ones too) which adds to the moral and legal standards they should uphold.

    I commented on another thread on Friday; why was Henry offering his sympathies for the English players and not their alleged victims. Why would he take sides absent all the information?

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    What is it with men who want to watch each other having sex with a young woman? Do they ask her if that's okay? What exactly is that about?

    There are people into consensual polyamory and all that sort of thing. How is it different from any other unconventional sexual behaviour? Isn't it discrimination to suggest that it's intrinsically wrong?

    Women (and men) are entitled to have their wishes respected.
    Equally, men (and women) are entitled to be considered innocent until proven guilty.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    I think you can seldom fault someone for reporting a crime to the police no matter what their motives, while I understand the reluctance of a victim to come forward they shouldn't be the only one to able to make that call - If looking out my office window here and I see a rape happening on the other side of the fence I'll call the police, if I find someone dazed and wandering the streets I'll take them to the hospital and they may call the police (might do it myself too just to cover my own arse)

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    Is the answer that women need to stop having valid life experiences, that a male such as myself could have with very little risk, because if you go to bed with a male there's a 10% chance that you happened to pick a complete scumbag who is going to take advantage of you?

    The problem isn't the argument that women need to take more care in where they get drunk and who they do it with - I mean, obviously getting blind drunk by yourself in town is putting yourself in a vulnerable position. The problem is that the first response to this sort of thing is always, always "women should do/not do x" rather than "why are we teaching men it's okay to have sex with someone who's too drunk to give consent". It's part of the whole thing whereby women are seen as the gatekeepers of everyone's sexuality, responsible for controlling when and where sex happens, even if that sex is not sex, but, in fact, rape. Men, on the other hand, are seen as always wanting sex and being incapable of choosing to not have it or be careful about it if the opportunity presents itself. It's an attitude that puts impossible pressure on women and at once stereotypes and excuses men. It's damaging for everyone.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    Some other things to bear in mind:

    Not saying "No" does not equal consent.

    Consenting to lap-dance does not entail consenting to sex.

    Consenting to having sex with one man does not entail consenting to have sex with other men.

    Consenting to having sex with one man at one time does not entail consenting to have sex with other men as well at that same time.

    Consenting to have sex does not entail consentiing to have other people watch you having sex.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Lucy, I heart you.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    There are people into consensual polyamory and all that sort of thing. How is it different from any other unconventional sexual behaviour? Isn't it discrimination to suggest that it's intrinsically wrong?

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with consensual group sex - whatever floats your boat, etcetera - but I think it's reasonable to be suspicious that in these situations it's always several big men having allegedly consensual group sex with one small woman. There's also a huge difference between "group sex" and "men watch each other have sex with one woman" - again, not that the latter can't be consensual, it just gets...odd, when that's always the scenario presented.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • anjum rahman,

    same lucy, well said. consent also becomes a problem when you are surrounded by two or more other big guys who may have entered the situation without your permission, and you happen to be totally unarmed. what realistic chance of withholding consent is there? in that situation, do you shut up and let them get on with it, in which case you "consented"? or do you try to get out and have them beat you up or hold you down and do it anyway?

    hamilton • Since Nov 2006 • 130 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    so i have 2 trains of thought in my muddled brain

    I have no idea about how law works, hopefully someone legal can step in

    but there are all these noises about the guys being guilty of rape.
    but no formal charges from a complainant
    however the police are investigating, is this a normal thing for police to investigate something without charges being laid?
    or do the police think they have enough information that they can lay charges themselves? so this is normal?

    i can see why they would not agree to talk to the police about something they may or may not charge them with in future. And yes everyone is innocent till proven guilty but i always assumed if you were not guilty best thing to do is not avoid the police.

    on another note
    hadyn has it bang on
    As soon as she didn't want to be in the situation and made it known to the others then the responsibility to stop is not with her but with the players.
    no is no.
    going back to a hotel does not equal consent
    it might equal stupidity if you dont think sex is on somebodies agenda.

    also
    If someone is in such a state where they cannot provide consent, that's also rape in my mind.
    Even if that is a state they got themselves into.

    also why i find those alac ads disturbing.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    The Duke lacrosse team also threw up some interesting dynamics. University groups and academics at the school assumed the team were guilty and vilified them.

    Not just at the university. It became a bit of a cause for all sorts of groups who appeared to regard a bunch of upper class white sportsmen accused of rape not so much as a tragedy (either way) as a heaven-sent opportunity. Apparently it's all http://iambecauseweare.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/mike-nifong-and-the-north-carolina-5-double-standards-of-north-carolina-justice/. And a quick browse around would tell you that nominally-liberal Metafilter had people http://www.metafilter.com/61578/Quite-the-comeback#1708644.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    Men, on the other hand, are seen as always wanting sex and being incapable of choosing to not have it or be careful about it if the opportunity presents itself. It's an attitude that puts impossible pressure on women and at once stereotypes and excuses men. It's damaging for everyone.

    right on, and an eloquent statement of what i was trying to get across. rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    Deborah, lucy

    thank you for such eloquent posts

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.

    Meh. I think it's men in team situations full stop. There's lots of unsavoury stories about all sorts of male sports teams.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Well obviously "no" means no

    But as Deborah said: not saying "yes" means no - that means you have to ask and get a reply - if you can't ask the answer is probably no

    Finally I'd add if the other person can't make that determination (even if they say "yes") because of alcohol or drugs or age or mental impairment (that other sad, bizarre case from this weekend comes to mind) then it also means no - and not only do you have to make that judgment but you have to be responsible for making the wrong one - you're still responsible for making the right choice even if you're too drunk

    And anyone can say "no" at any point, even after they say "yes"

    "Boys will be boys", "too much testosterone", "I was too dunk" etc etc are just words - they are not excuses

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    Thanks, Sue. What lucy and anjum have been saying is spot on. T'would be nice if people spent some time reading the extensive analysis of the ALAC ad over at The Hand Mirror and elsewhere in the NZ femi-blogosphere. The Hand Mirror post I have linked to has links to lots of posts about the whole 'she was drunk so it was her fault she got raped' trope.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    but there are all these noises about the guys being guilty of rape.
    but no formal charges from a complainant
    however the police are investigating, is this a normal thing for police to investigate something without charges being laid?
    or do the police think they have enough information that they can lay charges themselves? so this is normal?

    Yes, the police can press charges without complaint. I'm aware of this being done in the case of domestic violence, where the police can (and do) go for convictions even without a complaint, or when a complaint is withdrawn.

    If someone is in such a state where they cannot provide consent, that's also rape in my mind.
    Even if that is a state they got themselves into.

    also why i find those alac ads disturbing.

    We have a social double-standard there, though. Triple, really. In most cases we say that the person drinking too much isn't absolved of responbsibility for their actions - in fact, it may even be considered to aggravate them (driving, for example).

    And, of course, we also have a culture when having a few to get in the mood, or going out to clubs that people go to for the xpress purpose of drinking and scoring is the norm.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.

    One suspects that this has something to do with the simultaneous homoeroticism of a bunch of men in shorts groping each other combined with the extreme homophobia of rugby culture - rugby players are at pains to constantly prove their manly heterosexuality, which leads to farcical situations where watching each other have sex is manly and Not Gay, because they're having sex with women, right? But there's also huge pressure to be a Team and All Guys Together, you know, bros before hos. Which basically puts women in the category of "there for sex". And that kind of atmosphere doesn't lend itself well to thinking about women, especially women you're having a one-night-stand with, as people who need to be respected.
    Women become just another bonding exercise.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    I think it's men in team situations full stop

    actually if we're talking about dodgy behaviour it's people in group-think mode full stop.

    group-think encourages people to do all kinds of stupid and/or outright vicious things </not excusing the stupidity of these blokes actions>

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

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