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Speaker: What goes on tour

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  • rodgerd,

    why the hell should young women have to consider risk when hanging with these guys? that is unacceptable

    If the Satan's Slaves invited me back to their place I don't think I'd be in a huge rush to take them up on the offer.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Did she shop the story to the dress or are you getting confused with "Angel"?

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Dress was ment to be Press (Freud f&*k)

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    obviously it's smart to be carefull around scumbags - but equally one shouldn't have to be carefull around scumbags

    In a perfect world, of course not. But in an imperfect world, one avoids some bars, parts of town, and people unless one enjoys time in hospital. As noted in another discussion thread, that's hardly a gender-specific problem, either.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • anjum rahman,

    so what you guys are saying is that when women see international rugby players, they should obviously think "scumbags, potential rapists, stay well away"? which other group of men should that apply to (other than satan's slaves)?

    craig, there is no evidence that this woman tried to shop her story to the press at all. she didn't even call the police, and it could be that she was taken to hospital because she actually had serious injuries.

    just to add another factor into the mix, what if this young woman was a prostitute and was paid to be there? is rape part of the contract? is she still stupid and uncaring of her safety?

    hamilton • Since Nov 2006 • 130 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    rogerd: that's my point - there are two issues here:

    - is it smart to hang around in dangerous places (people)?

    - should there be places (people) that are dangerous?

    No one should be treated any differently if they're assaulted in a 'good' part of town or a 'bad' part of town - it may be a stupid thing to do but when the law gets involved it has to be neutral - assault is assault. Doesn't matter if you walked into a Black Power pub by mistake or were in Bellamys (maybe those are poor choices for this example)

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    No, Che, what I consider unacceptable is fucking naivete... But how about the notion that freedom comes with risks, and women... really have to take some ownership of their own safety.

    um... yeah...

    another way to look at it is this:

    1. group of young women the pub with group of young men

    2. group of young women the pub with group of rugby players

    why does the latter seem like a bad idea?

    there's obviously a risk involved in the former, but the latter automatically implies one.

    why should that be?

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Given that they were men with known names and faces, whose future whereabouts would be public knowledge, and who had far more to lose than most, it's hard to see why an international rugby player would be a dangerous person to have consensual sex with. It doesn't take great detective work to read an international rugby schedule.

    If a woman choosing to accompany such a man to a hotel room is taking an unnecessary risk, then she probably shouldn't be agreeing to have sex with anyone at all.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1324 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    Satan's Slaves invited me back to their place I don't think I'd be in a huge rush to take them up on the offer.

    the satan's slaves are lauded in the press, paid large sums to play, or held up as national heroes.

    there's a slight difference there.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    Shep,

    It was Angel Barbie (Sophie Lewis) who shopped her story to the press, and by going to the NotW didn’t do it in any half measures. Incidentally, it would appear the term “Party Girl” is now an official euphemism.

    I’m sure the (ex?) boyfriend of the 18 year-old would be a huge Person of Interest to the reptiles from the tabloids.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Anjum - the problem is that if things like this happen and don't get resolved for any group then that group is tarred by association - it's in their interest to come clean with the police rather than let it hang - by leaving the country like this all football players are now under a cloud (or more of a cloud) - given no other information "scumbags, potential rapists, stay well away" seems a reasonable response - especially since we can't which ones are or are not (or if they are at all) - you asked for another example - as I said above I think one could at the moment equally consider that the police might also be a group for young women to stay away from

    Rape is rape the moment consent is withdrawn (or can't be given), doesn't matter whether the person is a prostitute or not - 'no' means no

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB,

    Just to clear up some miss-understandings... under the heading "I've read the trash so you dont have to..."

    "Model Sophie Lewis" was dressed as Alice In Wonderland after attending a fancy dress party before meeting up with the rugby players. She is not the complainant of the other allegations... she denies any knowledge of what else may have taken place elsewhere in the hotel, and is also vouching for English player David Strettle as having spent the entire night with her and could not be involved in the other allegations.

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 887 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    PC,

    Not quite as straight-forward as that. The players are unlikely to go public even if it was 100% consensual, because of girl-friends / wives at home.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    they don't really have to "go public" - just talk to the police and tell the truth - shopping their team-mates if necessary - let the police check their alibis and at the end the cops can arrest people or announce that none of the team are "people of interest".

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    just talk to the police and tell the truth

    Somehow doubt that will be the advice from Chris Comesky, Barry Hart or whoever they've got as a lawyer?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    so what you guys are saying is that when women see international rugby players, they should obviously think "scumbags, potential rapists, stay well away"? which other group of men should that apply to (other than satan's slaves)?

    No, Anjum, from experience I'm suggesting that getting loaded with complete strangers (you know, alcohol that solvent of inhibitions and judgement) and going back to the hotel room of a near-total stranger might not be the smartest call you ever make. There's a very big difference between 'all men are rapists/all women who don't spend their Friday nights in church are whores' and just being careful. And that just might extend to professional sportsmen who are finding that the old school 'who goes down on tour, stays on tour' doesn't quite apply any more.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    If you read the Sunday gossip pages (and there is a grim fascination in doing so) you'll learn fairly swiftly that being a "WAG" is an accepted form of vicarious celebrity. I'm sure that that, as well as any financial reward, was in Sophie Lewis's mind when she chose to contact the press.

    The women involved appear to have been summoned by the club owner, Brooke Howard-Smith. What their expectations were, we don't know.

    But even if there was a not a rape here, I'd be angry if the All Blacks were to act like this on tour. They'd be representing their country, and I wouldn't expect them to celebrate a defeat with binge drinking and dubious sexual behaviour.

    What is it with men who want to watch each other having sex with a young woman? Do they ask her if that's okay? What exactly is that about?

    The England management now says it will write into contracts that touring players will not be able to bring women back to their rooms. That seems a shame: why shouldn't a man and a woman get it on in a foreign port? It's just the whiff of exploitation when it turns creepy like this that I don't like.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Well that makes sense for people that are actually guilty (assuming there are) - for the others it's in their long term interests to come clean and talk to the police - otherwise they're tarring all rugby players with the unresolved accusation. More likely though they're sucking it up and closing ranks 'for the good of the team' etc etc

    Is there a rugby equivalent to the "thin blue line" - thin brown line?

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    RB,

    I’d say the girls summoned by Brooke Howard-Smith (and trust him to be in the thick of it) had pretty clear expectations. According to the likes of The Sun, a lot of them made a bee-line for Mike Tindall (boyfriend of the Zara Philips, 100th or so in line to the throne). He’s probably had training though, so he brushed them off. But I guess that supports your assessments of sporting WAGs.

    Is watching other people having sex any different from watching porn?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    so when I heard of the lacrosse team my gut feeling was "guilty".

    What's interesting about the lacrosse, is that I saw several news items on the lacrosse team when it first blew up. I think both on our own news, and also The Daily Show covered it too. I hadn't heard anything about it since, and would have assumed that it was still going on or had been dealt with.

    If you'd asked me before today about that lacrosse team, I would have said "aren't those the guys that raped that girl?"

    Getting cleared of a crime is clearly nowhere near as 'newsworthy' in many instances as the original accusation.

    From what I can work out, the person really doing the complaining is the (possibly ex) boyfriend of the 18 year-old. He was the one that made her go to the hospital on the Sunday night etc. But he’s hardly impartial, is he?

    That might be. But it might be the case that he was just trying to look out for her. I'm still close to some of my exes, and if one of them was sexually assaulted the hospital and the police station would be the first places I'd be trying to get them to, same as if it was one of my friends or a family member or anything.

    We should suspend judgement on their motives at this stage. 'Innocent until proven guilty' should apply both to the complainant and the accused.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Robyn Gallagher,

    What's interesting (for me, at least) is that this is news in the UK because over there rugby players have the reputation as being public-school toffs who don't go off having drunken sex with "party girls" - that's what football/soccer players do.

    Whereas in New Zealand, we perhaps don't have such high ideals for our rugby players.

    Raglan • Since Nov 2006 • 1946 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Are you sure Robyn?
    My impression was that Rugby doesn't count to the general population & so lacks interest for circulation in the Tabloids.
    They get away with this carry because they're of no interest.

    "what if this young woman was a prostitute and was paid to be there? is rape part of the contract? "
    A couple of Wellington All Blacks anyone?

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    IMHO the whole Duke Lacrosse incident was all tied up with race in a way that may not be so obvious from a NZ viewpoint

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2608 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    No, Anjum, from experience I'm suggesting that getting loaded with complete strangers (you know, alcohol that solvent of inhibitions and judgement) and going back to the hotel room of a near-total stranger might not be the smartest call you ever make.

    This discussion reminds me of some female friends who have a real problems with that ALAC advert of the woman who gets drunk and then dragged down an alleyway by a guy who takes advantage of her being alone and inebriated. Their problem is that it's targeting the woman doing something that she should be able to do as much as anyone else - drink alcohol, rather than the behaviour of the male, which presumably is rape.

    I haven't been able to fall on either side of the debate until now, but now I think I agree with my friends. There isn't anything wrong with an sports person, or indeed anyone else here in NZ, shacking up with some local woman for the night in his hotel room. It sounds like from what Sophie Lewis spilled to the papers, she had a great night with whoever she got together with, and presumably he did too.

    Is the answer that women need to stop having valid life experiences, that a male such as myself could have with very little risk, because if you go to bed with a male there's a 10% chance that you happened to pick a complete scumbag who is going to take advantage of you?

    Yes women (and men) should put themselves in safe situations and make sensible choices. But when they don't, we should keep our eye on the problem, which is that other people take advantages of them making non-sensible choices in crappy ways.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    " Their problem is that it's targeting the woman doing something that she should be able to do as much as anyone else - drink alcohol,"

    None of us are legally allowed in a bar in her state & that needs to be addressed.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

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