"The Terrorism Files"
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Whew! At least we probably all agree on this one.
Inconcievable. Why, I have it on very good authority from members of this very community that the police are in on it with the gang leaders, don't monitor gangs and drug dealers, and only send out the armed coppers to deal with harmless Maori peace activists!
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As a woman I feel a little intimidated by this mostly male thread, but I just had to pipe up when I read of Kracklites anger...
Hey, Deborah was here. And she sort of swore!
My heart just sank. Like, to the depths of my bowels. I didn't need a fortune teller to tell me that these guys were going to have issues with their public image.
And that's a really interesting thing you say ...
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And lastly. Anybody who has spent any time around the activist community has heard this sort "kill a politician" B.S. talk.
Well, you know, maybe the "activist community" should spend less time on talking about the idea of killing people. For one thing, it would make it easier to tell the actual bad bastards from the stupid wankers.
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Goodness. One of the TV channels (I was flipping between them and can't remember which) pretty clearly identified who the person trying to buy a pistol and silencer was. The person is an activist and one of the pacifists whose supporters insisted 'would never have held a gun in their life'. How interesting
I'd take that with a grain of salt.
Because terrorism offences were not on the search warrants and no terrorism charges can be laid, those arrested were charged with what the police could put on the warrants - that is, firearms charges. This is irrespective of where or how many firearms were actually found. I note that bail was not opposed by the police, suggesting that either they were not concerned or were not confident that they could prevent bail. The news station would only have what is a leak filtered through their own interpretation.
And there you have trial by media in action.
Who watches the watchers of the watchers? The viewers.
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RB.
You're just old.
Old, gothic, more numerous than you might imagine, oh, and quite sprightly today.
With a history of activism that goes back as far as the miners strike in '84. Now, where would you rather live ?
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Seriously, there's something disturbingly cultic about people who let ideology act as a substitute for thought; who neatly divide the world into True Believers, Infidels and Heretics; and feel a deep and abiding contempt for the world most of us just try and muddle through, in all it's daunting complexity and frustrations.
I'd wholeheartedly agree except for this one little conundrum. You've neatly divided the world into the extreme and the moderate. I hope this isn't also a substitute for thought. It is just possible that extreme views are actually sometimes right. Minto has been trading on this for years.
The paradox of relativism. I am also a relativist, but I'm not that absolute about it.
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Seriously, there's something disturbingly cultic about people who let ideology act as a substitute for thought
So often when (rarely) observing debates on blogs and staged, self-cancelling "from the left and from the right" discussions, I'm reminded of early scenes in 2001: A Space Odyssey with the australopithicenes hooting and screaming at each other over the water hole. There's a strong element of ritual collective display there... and then of course, one picks up a bone...
Damnit, Craig, whatever you've got, it's catching.
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Old, gothic, more numerous than you might imagine, oh, and quite sprightly today.
You have a double? Or more? Be careful with that, what if it turns on you?
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and then of course, one picks up a bone...
...with the help of unimaginably powerful aliens, and seizes power. Next thing you know, it's 2007 and you absolutely definitely can't fly Pan Am to an orbital space station, economy class. Soooo bitter.
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You're just old.
Well, I've definitely a liking for music of the 80s - Thomas Tallis wrote some great motets, such as Spem in Alium around about 1580.
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Thomas Tallis wrote some great motets, such as Spem in Alium around about 1580.
Was that his pornstar name?
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Ben - maybe more than one oldie here.....
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I think it's a bit sad that the MSM is granted any respect as bart of out National identity at all when relatively small groups of local human such as Tuhoi require PR budgets in-order to get accurate press.
I think whenever you're doing a public event designed to get public support, you should think about how it appears in the media, if you want to get the most out of it. That would have been my advice to Tuhoe today, it would have been my advice to Destiny when they did their fascist styled march a while ago.
I don't know what you mean by 'accurate press'. There were people there wearing balaclavas. Indeed, as I understand it, that was part of the costume of the protest. Having arranged that particular image for the media, the marchers couldn't exactly complain if the media then publish it.
And a muzzled dog I saw in one photo, held by a guy with a bandana over his face. Are we going for 'looking real threatening and scaring the white folks' as our image this week?
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Was that his pornstar name?
No, he was a superhero. Most of them have initials that repeat or sound similar - Clark Kent, Peter Parker that sort of thing.
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And of course he fought on the side of good.
Thomas Tallis never bore any malice
Except for an organist named Ken,
who played badly now and then. -
I'd wholeheartedly agree except for this one little conundrum. You've neatly divided the world into the extreme and the moderate. I hope this isn't also a substitute for thought. It is just possible that extreme views are actually sometimes right. Minto has been trading on this for years.
Nice!
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"tis an ill wind that blows no good. Since this scare, Russ's blog hits have only been exceeded by the hits and new members of his comment pages. This is the revolution Russell ALL YOUR BLOG ARE BELONG TO US!! but think of the advertising revenue :-)
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A S,
And a muzzled dog I saw in one photo, held by a guy with a bandana over his face. Are we going for 'looking real threatening and scaring the white folks' as our image this week?
Heh.
Not to mention the ever so stylish Mobster/Black Power leather pants to complete the look.
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Blah Blah Blah Blah. Tomorrow we'll all wake up. Most will read the headlines only. they'll say f... the Maori. The Maori will say..f... you all and rangitoto will blow up for the sake of marketing. Mark my words. We are a petty state too often.
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You've neatly divided the world into the extreme and the moderate.
Well. I'd like to think I was slightly less moderate than someone who was slightly more moderate to me and that is all I will accept.
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A S,
Most will read the headlines only. they'll say f... the Maori. The Maori will say..f... you
Sadly, I think you've pretty much hit it on the head.
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Obviously the first item on the agenda was: How To Deal With the Media. How did they deal with it? They didn't. Instead of giving a statement of position to the TV3 blokes, they close the curtains
How could they have given a statement of position to the media before they'd even had a chance to discuss the raids amongst themselves? It seems quite natural to me that they'd want a chance to talk freely about what had just happened without the national news media recording every word.
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I find it pretty hard to disagree with the Sludge Report on Scoop.
Time to say sorry to the "Rule of Law". We are now all in possession of it. Everybody who has a copy of the newspaper or an internet connection. In theory we are now all breaking the law. This is as absurd as it is disturbing.
Meanwhile these 16 people have no way through the legal process to respond to the accusations against them. If they make public statements to the media they can be used against them in court. If they say nothing the public will probably assume their guilt.
Even the very expensive option of defamation law is not an option as the Dominion is protected by qualified privilege to report the sworn statement of a police officer in a court affidavit.
And while these 16 named people have been held up as terrorists in the court of public opinion , the Solicitor General - highest legal prosecutor in the country - has concluded - after reading a great deal more than the single affidavit upon which the Dominion bases its report - decided that the evidence collected against these 16 at a cost of over $8 million (according to the police) is insufficient for them to face anything more than illegal possession of firearms charges *.
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Coming in late here, when things seem to be descending happily into absurdity (and thank god for that). With no intention of reading back through nineteen pages, all I've got to say is:
Yes, Craig's observation is nice and very true. What was it? Secular religion. It's a really unfortunate, sad phenomenon.
But I'll indulge mine momentarily and address yours, Rogerd, when you characterise (and I'm not going to get this exactly right, so don't pedantically pull me up, ok) the leftish side in this argument as arguing against the rule of law and subjecting the police to trial by media.
That's simply not true. Sure, plenty of stupid people everywhere say plenty of stupid things, but there has been no shortage of reasonable argument on all sides. And just as most people have all along agreed that crazies with guns should probably be restrained, you'd have to be crazy yourself not to concede that the police handled this like, well, crazies with guns. (And then you'd only have to be a little bit left of not-crazy to note a few things about power, history, willful ignorance, appalling arrogance, manipulation of public prejudice....)
And your claim along the lines of "what are they going to say now that we see this evidence" is also a little odd. There's nothing that was revealed today that wasn't already, more or less, leaked. And it doesn't suggest anything revelatory. Playing revolutionary, playing with guns, maybe one or two people crazy enough to actually try something. (And the prime candidate there being, correct me, a white guy who refers to Maoris as "cocksuckers"? That's almost too laughable.)
And I personally reckon those juicy snippets sound a lot more sinister in print than the actual recordings would. It's bullshit talk; you can almost smell the stink of pot and stale beer as you read it.
As I said on day one, I reckon it was a better North & South story than anything else.
And yet it is kind of fascinating how, despite the fact that we all knew this stuff anyway (John Key, Bush, training camps, "war on NZ" etc), actually seeing the words in print sends us mad with talk. (I was busy all day thinking, "Ooh, I wonder what's happening on Public Address.")
I don't know, I just think there's this kind of prurience about drama and "event" that has been preyed on here, to the detriment of reasonable reflection. (And, of course, because I'm me, I think that unreasonable, hyperbolic reflection is more evident in people suckered into seriously using the word "terrorism" than in others using the word "stormtrooper" -- at least the latter know they're being metaphorical.)
And this sad lack of any real action is what I'll conclude on. Hager points out that the terrorist cops had jobs but no jobs to do (and, yeah, god, there's nothing worse than having a job and nothing to do); a lot of angry young activist types don't have enough worthwhile causes to fight; the call-centre-fodder public are desperate for anything that looks like CSI but is actually real; and journos and others good at manipulating language like to have something to really exercise their vocabularies over.
Pretty much explains all this hysteria.
I'll concentrate on the activists, because this thing does explain why so many of them seem like such dicks (a conversation going on around page 18). These groups (and my experience with them is limited but not inconsequential) are anarchistic in their philosophies and that, combined with the fact that none of their causes are really, genuinely, immediately pressing, means that a lot of bullshit goes on and a lot of narcissistic fuckwits dominate proceedings. Because amongst anarchists you're not allowed to say, "hey, you're a moron, shut the fuck up." Or, in the democratic way, quietly vote them out of position. Rather, you end up with big-mouthed fools talking a lot, contradicting themselves, trying to appeal to everyone, and, most of all, avoiding doing any work.
But, you see, if there were anything real to do, besides saving snails and protesting the latest act of government/corporate illiberalism (worthy enough actions, but not, you know, self-immolation material), these domineering anarcho-narcissists would simply end up with a sly bullet in the head and the revolution could continue.
Ah, romantic, yes, but so much more exciting than board rooms, chambers, banks, and internet chat.
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I'd wholeheartedly agree except for this one little conundrum. You've neatly divided the world into the extreme and the moderate.
Hum... A vanity Google turns up in fractions of a second all sorts of things I'm not notably 'moderate' about - and in one of those rather bitter ironies, when it came to the Springbok Tour my ten year old self was much closer to Minto than my (Maori) father. I'm probably on the flaming fringes now in my belief that New Zealand - and every other nation with any pretensions towards regard for civil and political human rights, regard for the environment, or international labour standards -- should be boycotting the Beijing Olympics. But that's another argument for another place.
And while I'm still passionate and vocal about politics, I just hope I've also grown up a wee bit. I can't be the only person out there who'd like to jump in a time machine and kick the arse of my irritatingly self-righteous know-it-all teen self.
And I'm pretty sure, Ben, we're on the same page that whatever I think of the Demoness Helen Clark even talking about murdering her doesn't crosss the line, it totally obliterates it.
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