"The Terrorism Files"
850 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 … 24 25 26 27 28 … 34 Newer→ Last
-
I'm not sure all this leaking is gonna help the accused but Socialist Worker has stated it is 4 firearms picked up.
Trashing ACT while they have been staunch supporters is off the mark but I didn't expect Shakespear."Contrary to panicky rumour, the police found no AK-47s, no molotov cocktails and no napalm bombs at Ruatoki. All they found were four rifles, a few rounds of ammunition and a lot of tough talk. Your average National or ACT member living in a rural area probably has more than that in their shed."
http://unityaotearoa.blogspot.com/2007/11/cops-sis-create-terror-panic-over-four.html
-
Whoops looks like they cut & paste from the Herald
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10476635
-
With this latest (and expected) news, I wouldn't underestimate Jamie Lockett.He may finally get his day in court which could be beneficial to his other grievances against the police. I dont think he is a "nutter". Angry perhaps,articulate and intelligent, definately.
-
Dominion Post headline 16 October :"Napalm bombs found in anti-terror swoop"
[http://tinyurl.com/23gxn5]
Herald headline 17 November : " Terror raids - charges linked to just 4 guns "[http://tinyurl.com/2v76et]
-
...and now, will the people who thought that the Police weren't out of line consider the possibility that it has been rather overblown. Let's say, if this turns out to be true and there were no molotov coctails, AK's or napalm - that all the tac they could lay their hands on was 4 guns - what the hell was going on? They turned over that whole town based on stupid bench-racing conversations - caused all that distress, planted the idea of Maori terrorism in the public mind, trod on the local cops toes, hurdled the Iwi liaison protocols - Why?
I'm serious, those of you who think the Police were bona fide: What are the underlying reasons for it to have become so exaggerated? How do YOU rationalise it?
-
Sara back to songs - "History never repeats, I tell myself before I go to sleep..."
And there shud be some falling on swords - in large numbers
-
Four rifles and it looks like two were .22s. What a stockpile. The state of NZ trembled...
Please- no falling on swords, though- unless you have a licence for that sword, Mr! -
I'm serious, those of you who think the Police were bona fide: What are the underlying reasons for it to have become so exaggerated? How do YOU rationalise it?
.
Perhaps it was the 18 suspects and fourteen firearms the police allege their saw at the final camp, two days before the arrests happened. Perhaps it was the six different camps that the allege occurred, and the hundreds of rounds of gunfire they allege they heard. Perhaps it was the observance of a number of individuals wearing balaclavas, listening to scanners capable of hearing ordinary police communications. It could have been the instructions into military manouevers they allege they observed at the camps, where individuals were taught how to ambush a vehicle, extract a wounded colleague under fire, and the counter-interrogations techniques where firearms allegedly pointed at the backs of fellow "campers". ( see the bugged conversation that allegedly took place on June 23, 2007, "That last exercise was a bit freaky for me, having a gun in my back."). Maybe it was some of these things that meant the police decided not to send in unarmed iwi liason officers.
-
If Saddam could hide WMD from both the UN Inspectors and the Coalition of the Willing, I don't doubt Tama Terrorist could have hidden his AK47's, Molotov's, Napalm, and Dirty Bombs ... we just haven't found them yet. Maybe we need new laws on Search & Seizure ...
-
Johnno, if I had your address I'd send you a Tui if I had a Tui.
-
Thanks, Sara, but i don't drink alcohol.
-
Good on you Steven, you saw a pattern I wasn't even aware of....
I guess we'll see the real story when the surveillance videos are shown for all to see in the trials.
But, I will ask this. Is there anything that would convince some of you that, maybe, just maybe, the charged individuals were up to no good?
-
The power and authority of facts (well, ok, alleged facts):
18 suspects and fourteen firearms
Yes, 18 suspects. Not twelve, or seventeen: eighteen goddamit, and fourteen firearms.
two days before the arrests happened.
Oh my God, did you say two days? Well if I'd know that. I mean, I thought it was like, um, well, a different number.
Perhaps it was the six different camps
SIX? Holy fuck!
and the hundreds of rounds of gunfire
Yes, ladies and gentlemen, hundreds of rounds of gunfire.
Now, please, if you have a heart condition do not read on. This next piece of data is so shocking, so disturbing, so utterly disagreeable to good thinking people and outside the realms of normal possibility, that we cannot even attribute a discrete quantity to it.
a number of individuals wearing balaclavas, listening to scanners capable of hearing ordinary police communications.
Indeed, a number.
WEARING BALACLAVAS.
LISTENING TO SCANNERS.
And:
instructions into military manouevers ... where individuals were taught how to ambush a vehicle, extract a wounded colleague under fire, and the counter-interrogations techniques where firearms allegedly pointed at the backs of fellow "campers".
It all sounds very camp. Though I've never seen a firearm point at anything: but if I did I'd be sure and tell him he was being rude.
So johnno, to answer your question: I'm prepared to be convinced that a few people were "training" for a war that doesn't exist and will not exist, and I'm sure they knew that too. Ever been to a dress-up party Johnno? You know that really you're just going to some flat to hang around and talk shit or whatever, but the dressing up part is such fun, it even becomes the real event. Maybe this playing dress-up in the bush involved "no good" in your eyes, but nothing that a quiet word or two in the right direction couldn't have put a stop to.
Now, will you answer Sara's question more directly?
You pretend to here:
Maybe it was some of these things that meant the police decided not to send in unarmed iwi liason officers.
And I really like the way you finish with that send in flourish, because, yeah, as you've shown, this was like hostile territory.
Sara's question was about why the police actions were so over the top and out of proportion. Your answer, as far as I can tell, is: "Well, they weren't."
Is that it? It looked like a war, they treated it like a war, kind of thing.
-
Yes, there was a bit of "no good" going down.
The snail savers were trespassing.
Some people had guns (4) without licenses.Excluding illegally published excerpts from illegally leaked copies of alleged transcripts of alleged conversations, what evidence is there?
If there isn't any more than this,
those of you who think the Police were bona fide: What are the underlying reasons for it to have become so exaggerated? How do YOU rationalise it?
-
Hey bjd, nice to see ya!
-
i'm like a rash.
-
Oh, and yeah, "individualism" seemed about right. But would you mind if I went with "selfism" as a working title for now?
Don't be so selfist!
He's a real selfist prick!
Your perspective is so unbelievably selfist. -
Don't let this distract you from the key question above, because thats what is really important, but:
You know, for all the fighting spirit I can show, I actually feel very, very sad. I mean, without even beginning to contemplate the trauma visited on the people who were caught up in the raids (okay that's bringing back the anger because that is more manageable than the distress) I think this has been profoundly damaging: alienating, polarising.
Remember Paul Buchanan saying that the contradictions in NZ society weren't great enough to engender terrorism? Well I really fear that this has pushed us one step further in that direction, and that is NOT something that can be blamed on those apprehended.
-
A "bit of 'no good' going down." Yikes.
Excluding illegally published excerpts from illegally leaked copies of alleged transcripts of alleged conversations, what evidence is there?
As I think I pointed out, the police still have extensive surveillance videos of the camps.
Ever been to a dress-up party Johnno? You know that really you're just going to some flat to hang around and talk shit or whatever, but the dressing up part is such fun, it even becomes the real event. Maybe this playing dress-up in the bush involved "no good" in your eyes, but nothing that a quiet word or two in the right direction couldn't have put a stop to.
Aaaahhh, so it was a dress up party. Of course, how silly of me to not have realised. Naughty policemen, they obviously don't have a sense of humour. Maybe they should have entered into the spirit of the thing and gone dressed as unicorns, or taniwha (geddit, the clever, FUNNY Tangata Whenua reference). Hey, I think I'm getting the hang of this.
-
FYI This has comes from the Tino Rangatiratanga website. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.
bjd: hope its contagious - not the selfism, the rash!
-
Johnno - given the disapppointing nature of the arms haul and the transcripts, don't you think the Video might also be a bit of a beat up?
And if it is... what would you make of it? -
I agree Sara. About the sadness thing. Not sure about the push towards terrorism. Without being an expert, I think extreme deprivation, in one form or another, is needed for that. And I do actually think that copycatism can come into it too. Anyways, we have deprivation aplenty, but not in the extreme, and thus far there's nothing to copycat. (But you're right in that the halting of whatever was or was not going on was carried out in the manner most likely to result in ongoing bad feeling and in possible future violence.)
As for the sadness: yeah. I liked your post because it actually cuts through all the "what are the facts" bollocks to the "how the hell did this thing get conducted like this" much more pertinent question. And the "why are people so willing to default to a trust in this kind of piggish authority" question.
And why are they not willing to examine that whole dynamic?
A couple of conversations I've had recently have gone like this:
"Yeah, it's obviously ridiculous, oh well, ha ha."
"Yeah, but, it's pretty awful, right? That people get treated like this."
"Oh, yeah, I guess, yeah, sure...."
Living with their heads up their arses I'm afraid.
-
I would argue that the transcripts aren't disappointing at all, and that when seen with all the other evidence, shows the police acted correctly, and that they were forced into the actions they took. I would also argue that the arrested indivduals are much more responsible for the hurt and distress caused to the law-abiding residents of the Ureweras than are the police. And while the police only found four firearms, that at least is four firearms not in the hands of delusional idiots.
My colleague saw some of the video in a closed court. The evidence remains suppressed. I went into the closed court late on for the judge's summation of the evidence he saw. Again, that is suppressed.
I also feel a deep sense of betrayal caused by the deliberate and repeated actions of some whose hubris has distracted attention away from the real issues we need to be addressing. What were they thinking?
-
and for the record:
I don't like guns
I don't like war
I don't think yr average copper and the vast majority of them are any more inherently fascist than yr average nurse or teacher (probably less so than yr average teacher)
I think most of them really want to do a good jobBut unlike even extreme activists, they have a huge power (legal, structural, and tangible - guns etc). They have a professional responsibility to use that wisely. When they don't it is incredibly damaging.
A third of medical interventions are made to remedy prior medical mistakes. I wonder what the equivalent measure is in relation to police enforcement procedures?
And the biggest culprit of all - underlying the vast majority of cases in both systems is alcohol. So on that, Johnno, you and I pretty much agree. I do drink a very little bit, very occasionally, but it horrifies me, the damage it does.
-
my final bid for the night...
bjd: it's hard not too I suppose, fear and complacency, complacency and fear - the push-me-pull-you of media mediated consumerism.
Johnno: You know, I can understand how you can believe most of what you believe, but not this
the police... were forced into the actions they took
That, to me is overblown, head in the sand, bollocks. (oooh three metaphors in one go...)
And what does this mean?the deliberate and repeated actions of some whose hubris has distracted attention away from the real issues we need to be addressing
Post your response…
This topic is closed.