"The Terrorism Files"
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"(despite what that letter writer in this morning's Herald thought)"
There will always be those that will say "Well he did it so there na na na na na" and that goes for the twat that brought the charge against Trevor Mallard over the fisticuffs in Parlaymunt too. It's just childish. -
For me the questions remain:
1. Were people actually heading down a path of doing harm.
2. And/or were police reasonable in their belief that someone was heading down a path of doing harm.We already have laws to cover those eventualities. Disturbing the peace, public nuisance and a raft of others. The point about the TSA is that it was required for international reasons and as it stood it was adequate for those circumstances. The amendment, on the other hand, didn't go far enough to cover what the police thought it should, ie. domestic terror threats which, I believe, are highly unlikely
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As I understand it he and a bunch of mates wandered up to the top of the island and set off smoke flares for his own commercial gain. I presume neither he, nor his mates, have any ability in controlled pyrotechnics and fire safety.
d'oh! You're right but what I meant was that it is ridiculous for some people to ask why Ellis wasn't wire-tapped and the AOS weren't tailing him, as if this is proof of some Police conspiracy to protect Whitey and attack Brownie.
Ellis should be charged if he broke any laws/by-laws (and if he didn't does this mean the House needs to spring into action to pass a law with urgency?) (and if they don't is this further prove that the conspiracy extends all the way to Parliament?) and going by the 20/20 item, I think Ellis expected to be charged too. I'm sure his PR team were hoping for it too.
But you've actually hit upon a subject close to my heart.
If a kid paints a mural on a wall (and no, I'm not talking about tagging, which is just pissing on a lamp-post) the Council is along quick smart to paint it out.
But if the Listener want to affix rubber advertising mats to the footpath at various points around Queen Street (and other companies have done it too) the ads stay there for months and no-one is punished (unlike the kid caught with a spray can). Ditto for the guy stencilling 'Bring Back Mello-Yello' on footpaths across the city with impunity, a month before <surprise!> CocaColaCorp bring back MelloYello in response to consumer demand! (And which channel was it who ran a 3 minute piece on the weekend news about the return of the Grapefruit FruJu in response to some guy who started an online petition which got a 100 votes? Yeah, right. Slow news day was it? Was their PR BS Detector on the fritz?And he's still an idiot.
I think his PR people prefer 'Larrikin' or 'Good Honest Kiwi Bloke'.
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Bjd (any relative of sjd?) - I agree with you that (mostly) those of us who are members of the dominant (though psychologically fragile) culture don’t (usually) experience ourselves as being racist. Yes our cultural identity is fragile (in the sense of our awareness of it – not that we don’t have much of a culture as some people think). I think the messages we get about culture are so conflicted that our sense of identity is quite stunted – individualism (perhaps the social corollary of the “selfism” you speak of) is taught to us as an ideological good, individual thought/creativity etc being given so much lipservice (and little else) at school, and in the media – “bee what you wanna bee with honey puffs” etc, and at the same time we are hammered with the idea of “National Identity,” which seems to me to be little more than state propoganda.
So, as you suggest, any awareness we have of a cultural identity is weak, fragile, superficial etc etc. At the same time we are peripheral to all the big cultural forces around us – England, the US, Australia, now Asia etc. As Pakeha we are even weak and peripheral compared to Maori/Polynesian who seem relatively culturally unified and strong. So despite our political/economic dominance as a culture, we nevertheless experience ourselves as amorphous, insubstantial, insignificant. Marginal.
In the face of an “other” proudly proclaiming otherness, yes we feel threatened etc. I think we also have a tendency to misjudge things we don’t understand as wrong or stupid or bad. So yeah, I think that we are so psychologically undone about culture and identity that we don’t really even notice when we are undoing others in our wake.
BUT: When settlers first came to this country there were, I think, active agendas that can now be understood as racist – the belief that, by getting Maori off the land and teaching them to work to generate capital for the state, we would be “civilising” them; that by giving them Christianity we would be saving their immortal souls. I actually think there is enough of this lingering in the minds of a lot of us to warrant careful inspection of our attitudes to and social programmes for Maori. We still subject Maori – violently in the sense that it affects their entire life’s prospects – to European educational values, blah blah blah… you know all of that.
What you’re saying is that what Maori (in this instance) experience as racism, we probably hardly experience as anything other than a twinge of anxiety and a reversion to type. Largely I think you’re right there – but I think we can be more aware of underlying racism that infiltrates us – that walking down the street at night I am likely to feel more scared if I have to walk past a group of Maori men than if they were Pakeha. That in broad daylight I might just feel a bit more self conscious in that situation with the Maori group than Pakeha. Just as I have internalised sexist responses – despite being middle aged and dumpy and ideologically opposed to such judgements, the “ooh look at that lump of lard” kind of thought still pops into my head in relation to some women I see (and the mirrors at the gym). We are full of negative programming that affects us all the more the less we are aware of it. So on that level I’m saying we can BE racist without knowing we are being racist.
As well as that there is the distinction between the individual and the institution. I suspect that there are conscious and unconscious, covert and sanctioned attitudes and practices that amount to racism in the police. I’m not saying that individual police are any more given to racism than any of the rest of us but, given many of the unconscious assumptions out there about “race” and crime, given institutionalised normative values, given the immense authority of the police as and agent of the state, that the collective action of the Police as an entity can be racist.
Whew. Sorry about the lecture – sometimes I need to be a bit turgid to get my thinking straight. Roll on Flight of the Concords. I need my TV fix.
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</aside>
When settlers first came to this country there were, I think, active agendas that can now be understood as racist – the belief that, by getting Maori off the land and teaching them to work to generate capital for the state, we would be “civilising” them; that by giving them Christianity we would be saving their immortal souls.
It fascinates me how Maori have intertwined Maoritanga with JudeoChristian values, and vice versa. To me it's an indictment on both sides that they have been so 'accommodating' to eachother. Christian religion and Maori both seem to have cherry picked what suits them and turned a blind eye to the bits that don't.
Did God create Heaven and Earth, or did Rangi and Papa??
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DOC rightly points out that he could have set Rangitoto on fire. The fact that he didn't is, I presume, more luck than good management.
The fact that he didn't cause harm, beyond wasting emergency services time, isn't a reason to do something. The difference between 'nothing happening', and 'harm happening to Rangitoto by fire' is probably a combination of wind and chance.
You know, my brother Rick is a helicopter pilot - a commercial pilot now flying enormous industrial machines, but back in the day he flew search and rescue for the Canadian west coast and to this day he has a real hatred of those kind of pranks.
Everyone I've ever known who has worked in any kind of emergency response capacity - whether as a clinician, firefighter,
mountain search and rescue - or Rick flying SAR, they despise time-wasters and believe that sort of offense should be prosecuted not only because it is expensive, but most crucially it puts other people at risk.It's not a good idea to tie up the time an attention of someone employed to rescue or give medical attention to people who actually need it, and anyone irresponsible to do such a thing whether as a civil threat, a prank or to gain some kind of commercial advantage should have the book thrown at them. The intention is not very relevant and should not influence the penalty that much. Perhaps a little, but not that much.
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...any awareness we have of a cultural identity is weak, fragile, superficial etc etc.
perhaps you could go through and change all those "we"'s to "I"s.
I’m not saying that individual police are any more given to racism than any of the rest of us but, given many of the unconscious assumptions out there about “race” and crime, given institutionalised normative values, given the immense authority of the police as and agent of the state, that the collective action of the Police as an entity can be racist.
Or it might not, it may be that you are projecting your own unconscious prejudice. A just as valid argument as the one you are making.
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It's not a good idea to tie up the time an attention of someone employed to rescue or give medical attention to people who actually need it, and anyone irresponsible to do such a thing whether as a civil threat, a prank or to gain some kind of commercial advantage should have the book thrown at them.
Personally, I don't think the 'commercial' element is at all relevant. But I am a huge believer - perhaps predictably, being a filthy right-winger and all - that folks who punk emergency services should be billed for it. It might just serve as a wake up call to some people who just don't have a clue that emergency services don't run on moonbeams and warm fuzzies. Since Dyan mentioned his brother, I suspect the bill for aviation fuel alone was not paid out of petty cash. Nor would securing the services of a pilot with a pretty specific skill set.
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merc,
Tipping point met.
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Following orders is no excuse. The whole lot must be prosecuted for their abuse of a 12yr old & her family.
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merc,
Police cannot be individually held to account,
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10477232 -
Thanks Stephen.
"Standard AOS proceedure" looks like one thing when they are responding to an armed offender. Not ok when there are no arms, and no offenders.
I hope some key players heard this, and paused for a moment. -
a wake up call to some people who just don't have a clue that emergency services don't run on moonbeams and warm fuzzies. Since Dyan mentioned his brother, I suspect the bill for aviation fuel alone was not paid out of petty cash
In Canada the search and rescue (on the water anyway) is handled by the Coast Guard, which is not military (as it is in the USA) but a government agency, under the Ministry of Transport. They are also responsible for marine forecasts, maintaining weather stations, keeping the icebreakers moving through the frozen sea etc.
Of course all this is paid by taxes, not run as a charity, but that doesn't really make any difference at all. It's expensive whoever picks up the tab.
But the search and rescue people (as well as the ER clinicians and firefighters) are less concerned with the cost of their time and attention than the fact that their time and attention is turned elsewhere.
Ask anyone who works in any emergency response capacity, and they will tell you this kind of time wasting is inncredibly irresponsible.
The kind of prank that puts other people's lives at risk is very serious - and whether those pranksters intend harm, are unable to
understand the harm they could be causing, were just kidding or are very sorry afterwards, their actions should be prosecuted. -
Thanks Stephen.
"Standard AOS proceedure" looks like one thing when they are responding to an armed offender. Not ok when there are no arms, and no offenders.Tuhoe Lambert was one of the two men who had been buying guns and military equipment on Trade Me, so they could claim an expectation that someone in the house was armed. It still sounds dreadful.
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In an effort to bring some levity to this thread and if possible derail it entirely, How to be a homeopathic bioterrorist.
1. Buy a carton of orange juice and 30 1-gallon jugs of water.
2. Place one drop of orange juice into one of the jugs of water. Shake.
3. Take one drop of that dilution and place it into the next jug of water. Shake.
4. Take one drop of that dilution and place it into the next jug of water. Shake.
5. Repeat the process until you reach the last jug of water.
6. Take a drop of that final dilution and place it into your municipality’s water supply.
7. Everyone gets scurvy! -
Neil, I could post the research that backs up my position, but I suspect even that wouldn't help you pull your head back out of your arse.
Instead this is the latest I have seen from Paul Buchanan.
Steve, thanks for the link to Cithrin Ryin, though it makes me feel so sick. Even your homeopathic biocontaminant only cheered me briefly.
We could do the same with beer and cure alcoholism, but then you'd all be terminally sober, like me.
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Paternalism. There it was, all the time, staring me in the face.
Like a gun to the head.
Never had a gun to my head.
You?
Bears cogitating upon.
Course, not everyone gets to feel like their life's suddenly turned into a movie, which is the going definition, I believe, of "real and worth giving a fuck about", so they shouldn't complain really.
(For a moment or two, Patricia and the police shared something kind of special: Hollyreal. Until it turned awful and ridiculous and obviously sick, at which, of course -- nation of heroes -- the first person to show some fucking "leadership" was one of the captives, walking through the impotent weapons that were trained upon her, while their mindless masters wondered who would tell them what to do next: never know, maybe there'd be a reason to bash someone's head in; or maybe do a haka; or pass a joint; or whistle at some chick in a short skirt; or laugh hollowly in embarrassment -- please, anything, just get me the fuck out of here!)
Ach.
Paternalism a la JS Mill is one thing; but when it goes more Mark Lundy you gotta start to wonder.
Course, you know, those officers couldn't be sure. What would the public've said if they, like, let those people go inside for blankets and then they came out, nan and the kid (butch and the kid?), guns blazing, suicide bombing, all that.
Eh? Eh?
All very well to criticise, but they're the ones on the frontline of this heavy shit; they're answerable to the nueu zilund "people"; they gotta weigh these things up.
Cocksuckers.
Sara: yes yes, we have a culture alright: it's all around us.
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Just watched The Fourth World War - a bit of a mood setter vid really although I'm sure it would ring true to those who lived through the invasion of Ruatoki.
Some nice poetry in there to.
http://www.bignoisefilms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=16&Itemid=28
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Hey, I/O, I've been mulling over your comment and realise that I actually think that the
Christian religion and Maori both seem to have cherry picked what suits them and turned a blind eye to the bits that don't.
is a sign of strength. We live in a hybrid state all the time, constantly reflecting, synthesising, adapting. Staying in a Christian retreat in Hong Kong, I was struck by how Daoist their take on Christianity (or at least the Bible) was. Nevertheless, they had adopted some of the worst bits as well - particularly Judgement: damnation and salvation, which I think Daoism had worked hard against (though with limited success).
Further ironies observed in a Buddhist monastery at Jiuhuashan, China, when the young nun who had been appointed to the occupation by her local Communist Party committee (this is the mid-eighties), took us walking on the mountain, swiping at the butterflies with a stick as she went. It is all so much more complicated than we think.
Anyway, the cherry picking thing tempers my hatred of missionaries somewhat. "Yield and be preserved whole" (Lao Tze) and all of that. The irony in that of course is when Pacific Island Mormons turn up on my doorstep.
The other thing to be said in favour of the early missionaries to NZ was that they thought that Maori had souls to save - in so many other situations the assumption was that the locals were subhuman and they were just wiped out - like in Tasmania.
the first person to show some fucking "leadership" was one of the captives, walking through the impotent weapons that were trained upon her, while their mindless masters wondered who would tell them what to do next
exactly
Hollyreal - yes. paternalism - yes. Cocksuckers - well, probably a bit insulting to cocksuckers, but I agree with the sentiment.
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Of course all this is paid by taxes, not run as a charity, but that doesn't really make any difference at all. It's expensive whoever picks up the tab.
Sure, and could you point me to any emergency service - whether funded publicly, privately or some combo of the two - that's asked for budget cuts because they're really over-staffed, over-resourced and don't have much to do? :)
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Neil, I could post the research that backs up my position, but I suspect even that wouldn't help you pull your head back out of your arse.
I take it that wasn't meant as an invitation to debate the relative merits of my arse vs. your brain but rather some sort of implication that my views aren't based on any knowledge of or reflection on or action in race relations in NZ. You might yet again have been at the mercy of projection.
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Neil, if you actually proposed an argument that related to race relations in New Zealand I would happily debate it with you.
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Given we're in a bit of a quiet patch I thought I'd raise a little something that has been on my mind from time to time.
We have, many times, in this discussion used the phrase, "tarred with the same brush" or similar. I'm guessing (put me right someone) that this refers to the idea of tar-and-feathering as a punishment, given that to be "tarred with the same brush" implies some shared, or inherited, negative characteristic (doesn't it)?
I'm not a great believer in censoring language for the sake of "political correctness" but I am interested in the thoughts that underpin language and how they inform and even create our perception of the world. So it is interesting to me that the phrase s/he has "a touch of the tar-brush" is (or was) used in NZ to mean being part Maori/Pacific etc, i.e. a bit brown.
Presumably somewhere along the way the phrase developed both meanings and I'll bet that when the "tar-brush" was applied to Maori et al it was fully loaded with its pejorative implications. I wonder whether this association has also been transfered back (unconsciously at least) to the "tarred with the same brush" thing. Just wondering what happens inside your various heads when these phrases appear....
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I have never heard "touch of the tar brush" used in any NZ context. I think of it as old American and even older British usage. It's not part of my working vocab and I can confidently say there is no crossover in my mind.
I would have suspected "tarring with the same brush" is a nautical term from the days of wooden ships, but here is a claim that it's of farming origin.
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