Southerly: Confessions of a Social Retard
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he NHL is not the Canadian sporting body!
Um, okay. I thought "national" in NHL meant "canadian" but don't follow sports, here or in Canada. And I'm not sure if anything I did look up about those people you named indicated to me that Canadians liked what they did. I am pretty sure if a public figure from any walk of like hit a woman or killed a child their career would be over but I may be mistaken.
I never suggested bullying didn't happen to men.
Im not sure the parallel between middle aged women at a cocktail party and the hockey viewing public in Canada is quite... comprehensible to me.
Nor did I read in any of the crap I looked up anything that suggested that the Canadian public supported either the first player's tacky outburst or the second player's violent act. But I am quite open to correction on that point, if you can be bothered to find it and post it. A poll perhaps?
It seems a massive waste of time to bother looking this stuff up... but if we are going to be comparing the public perception of violent sporting figures with each other in their respective countries:
Soulan Pownceby might be a better example of public tolerance for bullying than the reaction of other partygoers to a gaggle of outrageously drunk women behaving tackily at a suburban NZ party.
A convicted child killer has been selected in New Zealand's boxing team for the Commonwealth Games.
Soulan Pownceby, 29, is rated one of the Kiwi's main hopes for a boxing medal in Melbourne.
In 1995 Pownceby was sentenced to four years jail for the brutal killing of his five-month daughter Jeanette.
Arthur Tunstall, the driving force behind Australian amateur boxing for half a century, said Pownceby had done his time and was now a free agent again.
"If the New Zealand people pick him their side we have to accept their decision," he said.
New Zealand amatuer boxing boss Keith Walker said Pownceby had been dealt with by the judicial system and was free to leave the country.
"He is deeply remorseful for what happened," he said. "He has done his time so who are we to stand in judgement of him?
"Soul has made a fresh start and kept his nose clean, and I don't see any reason why he would change that now."
Games Minister Justin Madden and Melbourne 2006 chairman Ron Walker said they had no authority over team selection.
"It's a matter for the authority to advise us of their selection and once they're selected, and all the approvals are given, we are very happy for them to compete," Mr Walker said. -
Parisians named one of their airports after the Internet slang for sarcasm
Huh. Wasn't aware that 'De Gaulle' was an internet term for sarcasm. Must try harder to stay down with teh kidz.
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Im not sure the parallel between middle aged women at a cocktail party and the hockey viewing public in Canada is quite... comprehensible to me.
I took your general point to be that insofar as bullying existed at all in Canada, it was met with near-universal derision. And I think it's not unreasonable to counter that claim by pointing to hockey culture - where machismo, sexism and racism are rife. I appreciate that you don't follow it, but you can't ignore it exists, surely. And it is about as small and insignificant an aspect of the national psyche as rugby is in New Zealand, by all accounts.
Nor did I read in any of the crap I looked up anything that suggested that the Canadian public supported either the first player's tacky outburst or the second player's violent act. But I am quite open to correction on that point, if you can be bothered to find it and post it. A poll perhaps?
If you won't take my word for it (amazingly, I didn't file those discussions from 2004) I point you quite simply to the fact that Bertuzzi was selected for the Canadian team in both 2005 and 2006, at the Olympics. (As indeed was Patrick Kane last year, after assaulting and robbing a taxi driver who didn't have $1.20 change for his fare).
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I took your general point to be that insofar as bullying existed at all in Canada, it was met with near-universal derision.
That wasn't my point... my point was that women in Canada are conscious of trying to appear sweet and will go to much greater lengths to mask their bitchy behaviour. A group of women would not nod approvingly and lend support to the comments I described, but would recoil in horror at the thought that they would be soiled with the reflected crap the insulting drunk speaker was spouting. For that matter, being that drunk in public would be regarded as shameful in Canada. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I am saying a woman would be careful how she chose her words and her delivery because she would be found less attractive, whereas here I have heard men express admiration for women who pride themselves on being spiteful or mean-mouthed.
Perhaps this just means that Canada is a more sexist country. Maybe it's better that NZ women show solidarity with their drunk, foul-mouthed friends? I didn't claim kindness, compassion or good-heartedness stopped women from acting like witches stirring a caldron at parties, I said it was the fear of appearing ugly especially in the eyes of the opposite sex, and that this sort of censure is less likely to be experienced by people who go to single sex schools.
Just as my description of my friend Tracey shouting abuse at a mongrel mob member would not be typical or common behaviour for NZ women. That shrill, proscriptive, bossy tone would have appalled a lot of NZers, especially as she'd launched into a top volume tirade on what a crap job he was doing of taking care of his kid. I am sure her behaviour would have shocked and appalled virtually all NZers, especially women, but it would have been considered quite normal and defensible and positively constructive to many Canadians.
My point was the cultures are very different. My point was that things I have seen and heard here would shock Canadian sensibilities. My Dad kept getting shock after shock from NZ tv ads, and conversations with people who would say things that just stuck him as... like something he would have heard in Canada back in the 1940s.
I am sure when NZers go to Canada they are frequently shocked and offended by facets of my culture that are completely different from their own.
I think it's not unreasonable to counter that claim by pointing to hockey culture - where machismo, sexism and racism are rife. I appreciate that you don't follow it, but you can't ignore it exists, surely. And it is about as small and insignificant an aspect of the national psyche as rugby is in New Zealand, by all accounts.
This might be shocking...
assaulting and robbing a taxi driver who didn't have $1.20 change for his fare)
...but this struck me as a completely different league of difficult for the public to fogive this ...
brutal killing of his five-month daughter Jeanette.
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...but this struck me as a completely different league of difficult for the public to fogive this ...
brutal killing of his five-month daughter Jeanette.
You'll note I never defended that decision nor claimed that the NZ public would get up in arms about something like that. Just that there are well-documented instances of machismo and tolerance of bullying in both cultures.
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Hey, Gio and Kyle, I was looking for articles that talked about the public reaction to these players' respective disgraces
So what have we learned from the NHL's actions on this, and by the hockey world's reactions?
Two things we've learned from this mess.
The first is the remarkable gap in moral outrage between American and Canadian media and fans.
Like in the Toronto media chattering class, which treated Avery's "sloppy seconds" quip with near-total indignation; like he had wheeled a flat screen in front of Dion Phaneuf's locker and played a sex tape of himself and Elisha Cuthbert set to Green Day's "Good Riddance (Time of Your Life)." Even the humorous boys at the Kurtenblog couldn't find the mirth in Avery's taunting.
Compare that to this report from Puck Daddy reader Felix, originally from Montreal but now in Dallas, on the local fan reaction to Avery:
On talk radios here in Dallas, people were laughing it off, saying they had no idea why he was even suspended . No one here (at least around the office and on sports talk radio) thought it was a big deal at all, but apparently Stars management did not take it well.
Did anyone else sense a cultural, geographic divide on this issue?As for the other guy....
indeed was Patrick Kane last year, after assaulting and robbing a taxi driver who didn't have $1.20 change
As for this guy... Patrick Kane ... he's not Canadian.
Patrick Timothy Kane Jr. (born November 19, 1988) is an American professional ice hockey right winger currently playing for the Chicago Blackhawks
... which would be why I had trouble finding any news articles about reaction by Canadians...
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I found this though!
Team Canada Rap Disses Patrick Kane and Team USA
"Can't believe you think you got a chance against the best/when your roster looks weaker than Patrick Kane's chest."
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As for this guy... Patrick Kane ... he's not Canadian.
Ops. Hehe... yes.
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I am sure when NZers go to Canada they are frequently shocked and offended by facets of my culture that are completely different from their own.
When I think of Canada, the first word that springs to mind is 'offensive'. Heh.
(I should note that the story about telling off the dude outside the TAB did, in fact, make me feel vaguely and reflexively indignant on behalf of a gang member feeding his child chocolate and a fizzy drink for breakfast. Which is... interesting.)
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I am sure her behaviour would have shocked and appalled virtually all NZers, especially women, but it would have been considered quite normal and defensible and positively constructive to many Canadians.
Are you sure she was Canadian? I cannot believe the entire nation of Canada is that judgeypants. She wouldn't survive 5 minutes where I work. There are ways and ways of doing things, and that ain't one of the most effective.
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Are you sure she was Canadian? I cannot believe the entire nation of Canada is that judgeypants. She wouldn't survive 5 minutes where I work. There are ways and ways of doing things, and that ain't one of the most effective.
Yeah, Tracey is very Canadian - but I totally agree, not an effective approach at all and a likely one to get us beaten up and make things worse for the kid.
But that's very Canadian behaviour - we are a deeply censorious people. I once confronted a woman (a Canadian woman, back in Canada) who had smacked her toddler and was dragging her along in a particularly painful way - I caught up with her and said "whatever it is she's done, she doesn't deserve that treatment" and the woman gave me a cold look and said "Oh?" turned and gave her kid an almighty whack in the face and said "that one's from you".
I became a little more careful and diplomatic when interfering, usually leading with something like "I think you've been incredibly patient... I would have snapped a long time ago... " which, hopefully is a bit more effective at interrupting a beating. I also approach people and their dogs (we live by Cornwall Park) and if the dog is suffering from terrible thirst, eyes glazed and swollen tongue lolling, I try to phrase it in a way that implies that the owner must already know this and simply doesn't know where to find water. But yes, I judge and yes I interfere, hopefully mildly and politely enough to be effective and not just piss the person off.
But censorious and eager to jump in yes, that is part of the national make up... there was a bright-red lobster coloured baby, roasting for hours in the full sun at Piha - and much to Paul's horror I suggested to the parents that perhaps their child might be more comfortable in some shade? And just a couple weeks ago in Cornwall Park, a man who sped up his car and revved his engine, narrowly missing a toddler on a bike with training wheels crossing the road. He was swearing and screaming abuse at the kid who was not moving fast enough for him - so I chased after his car and yelling "Are you crazy?? How dare you run a kid off the road?!? ASSHOLE!" much to the astonishment and disapproval of the other people walking in the park. The Mum, who also had a baby in a stroller and her hands very full did thank me effusively though, she was quite shaken and in tears, as was the toddler.
As far as the poor nutrition scenario - Tracey would not see the man had any rights in that instance, any more than if he had been giving the kid a bottle of scotch, a syringe full of heroin and a pack of cigarettes. Her take on it would have been that man is violating that boy's right to be strong and healthy with sound teeth and she was pretty indignant with me when I dragged her away.
But the chances of someone coming up and expressing an opinion on something they think is wrong - whether it's littering, beating your kid, smoking where you shouldn't, locking your dog in a car - a Canadian feels quite justified and positively duty bound to march right up and express a sharp and critical comment. A Canadian is the most likely nationality to march over and express loud disapproval.
Well maybe second most likely. I just remembered witnessing a tense scene at a barbeque (here) where one of the couples had acrimoniously split, a few months after the husband had talked his young wife (who had supported them both during many years of his university) into quitting her job and having a 2nd child (1st one was still under 2). He left her for someone else when she was 3 months pregnant. Then he turned up uninvited to a barbeque.
So a guest from Germany - who barely knew any of them - marched over to him and demanded "ARE YOU THE ASSHOLE WHO LEFT HIS WIFE WHEN SHE WAS PREGNANT??" there was an awkward pause, but he admitted he was. "WELL I THINK YOU'RE A PIECE OF SHIT!" she said, and sat back down to calmly eat her sausages. The asshole guy looked uncomfortable for about a minute and then just left.
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So a guest from Germany - who barely knew any of them - marched over to him and demanded "ARE YOU THE ASSHOLE WHO LEFT HIS WIFE WHEN SHE WAS PREGNANT??" there was an awkward pause, but he admitted he was. "WELL I THINK YOU'RE A PIECE OF SHIT!" she said, and sat back down to calmly eat her sausages. The asshole guy looked uncomfortable for about a minute and then just left.
I can think of several people I wish this had happened to.
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I am pretty sure if a public figure from any walk of like hit a woman or killed a child their career would be over but I may be mistaken.
Sadly not so. Charlie Sheen was given a two year suspended sentence in the 1990s for physically assaulting a girlfriend. His career is doing ok. Plenty of sportspeople as well.
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Bobby Hull, most famously. I'm still a bit befuddled that Bertuzzi is not a pertinent counter-example though. He commits aggravated assault on an opponent and doesn't so much as lose his place in the national team. The fact that Steve Moore wasn't a woman or a child doesn't seem that much of an extenuating circumstance to me.
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He commits aggravated assault on an opponent and doesn't so much as lose his place in the national team. The fact that Steve Moore wasn't a woman or a child doesn't seem that much of an extenuating circumstance to me.
Nah, me neither. Surely any muscled pro athlete must be getting close to being a different category of assault - like boxers or martial artists. Even against other athletes the potential for lethal damage should count for something - even without considering their influence on young spectators.
I want to see some prosecutions of sports thugs for the damage they do to society.
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So a guest from Germany - who barely knew any of them - marched over to him and demanded "ARE YOU THE ASSHOLE WHO LEFT HIS WIFE WHEN SHE WAS PREGNANT??" there was an awkward pause, but he admitted he was. "WELL I THINK YOU'RE A PIECE OF SHIT!" she said, and sat back down to calmly eat her sausages. The asshole guy looked uncomfortable for about a minute and then just left.
I can think of several people I wish this had happened to.
Yes, it was satisfying to witness, and it made the pregnant, deserted wife (who'd been close to tears since the asshole's arrival at the barbeque) much more comfortable.
What I found interesting was the reactions of the other guests - it was pretty much a 50:50 split between those who thought the German guest had spoken completely out of turn, and those who thought she had done a good thing. It was not divided down male:female lines either - but there was a real black/white take on the event - no one was undecided about it.
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What I found interesting was the reactions of the other guests - it was pretty much a 50:50 split between those who thought the German guest had spoken completely out of turn, and those who thought she had done a good thing. It was not divided down male:female lines either - but there was a real black/white take on the event - no one was undecided about it.
I've experienced something rather similar at a social gathering, where the recent young(ish) Thai bride of a gentleman of a certain age loudly collared anyone who was prepared to listen - and some who weren't - to complain about hubby's impaired horizontal folk-dancing skills. Seems that the stomach he'd developed from all those advertising industry lunches "got in the way".
So much we can learn from the values of other cultures eh?
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Charlie Sheen
Kyle, Charlie Sheen is an American actor. Gio, Patrick Kane is an American athlete.
Both of you are off on a tangent about men who work in lucrative businesses.
I remarked that in Canada the reaction to that by other guests to a loud bully would be shock, disapproval and distancing, rather than giggles, amped up volume of name-calling and herd-agreement.
The sporting examples you give are unrelated to any of this, but I look them up and,the reaction to the spiteful outburst by a Canadian player is was huge public opprobrium for his remarks in Canada, and a milder disapproval in the US.
The first is the remarkable gap in moral outrage between American and Canadian media and fans.
Like in the Toronto media chattering class, which treated Avery's "sloppy seconds" quip with near-total indignationBut this was not about sports - which are a business. I was talking about a social setting where a tight coterie of middle aged women were evidently delighted with their success at making another middle aged, acne scarred woman cry at a party.
In Canada the other women would have expressed disapproval and distanced themselves from her outburst. Not necessarily motivated by kindness, but by vanity - they would be loathe to have any men be witnesses that facet of their personality. A Canadian man would find a woman who behaved that way less attractive. Ugly even.
There was a tv character example of my point about how men in this culture can admire a bully. In a scene on the tv show Go Girls, a character grabbed the wrist of a 9 year old girl and threatened her. A man - the child's teacher - witnesses this and instantly falls in love with the child-intimidator. The wrist grabber would not be lovely or lovable in my culture. No matter what the 9 year old had done, the man would only see a nut who threatened a little kid.
Just as my outburst against the driver who ran a little boy off the road elicited glares of disapproval at me - there are different perceptions of what is and isn't okay or acceptable in society. In NZ society, to behave in a manner was considered appropriate, I would have pretended not to see the driver or notice he had nearly hit the kid when he swerved towards him, and I would have not made eye contact with the distraught Mum - just like everyone else in the park that day.
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Q: How do you get 50 drunken Canadians out of a swimming pool?
A: "Excuse me, could everyone get out of the pool, please? Thanks."I attended a Canada Day event in central London a few years ago, in the company of several of Saskatchewan's finest. It was a big street party near Covent Garden; all the Canadian bars had set up stalls outside, all the non-Canadian bars had hastily bought a few cases of Molsons and had slapped up a maple leaf poster or two. The street was totally, utterly full of drunken expats, complete with the stereotypes (group of 5 topless lads each with a letter of "YUKON" painted on their chests, etc). Arriving, we saw the heaving, drunken mob, and were slightly intimidated. Then we spotted another mate of ours on the other side of the street. Hell, we'd have to cross over through the drunken mob. And lo, it was as easy as saying "Scuse me.. pardon me..." - no matter how drunk people were, they politely stepped aside. I was astonished. Throughout the entire day, and some fairly epic drinking by the capacity crowd, I saw precisely one punch thrown - by a bloke with a Sarf Landahn accent. I don't care if they're all passive-aggressive, it's much neater than being aggressive-aggressive.
That said, one of my mates came from a smallish town near Saskatoon. He had longish hair, and once mentioned that he had to avoid a lot of the bars in his home town, because many people thought he looked First Nations, and he didn't need drunks picking fights with him. So there's clearly a bit bubbling under the surface, as well.
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In NZ society, to behave in a manner was considered appropriate, I would have pretended not to see the driver or notice he had nearly hit the kid when he swerved towards him, and I would have not made eye contact with the distraught Mum
Can I call a bit of a 'NO WAI' on that? (Also known as 'bullshit'.) I think reactions to that particular situation would vary widely depending on personality, rather than some nebulous idea of national behavioural characteristics. In other words, I would totally have yelled at that guy, and in my currently rather brief time as a parent I've also noticed that mothers and fathers pretty much *always* make eye contact (or more) with each other in stressful situations for their children.
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The sporting examples you give are unrelated to any of this, but I look them up and,the reaction to the spiteful outburst by a Canadian player is was huge public opprobrium for his remarks in Canada, and a milder disapproval in the US.
You also oddly left out the part where a Canadian player nearly murders an opponent and is met by the huge opprobrium of being selected for the Olympic team. I remain somewhat baffled by the selective approach, and saying that sports is a business therefore doesn't count makes no sense. However I am now working on a "there is no sexism in Italy" theory that I will propose to you all real soon.
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Can I call a bit of a 'NO WAI' on that? (Also known as 'bullshit'.) I think reactions to that particular situation would vary widely depending on personality, rather than some nebulous idea of national behavioural characteristics
Yeah, as a woman who is not a parent, who nearly got punched in a service station for deigning to tell a woman it might not be appropriate to talk to a child like that, I second Danielle's call.
However I am now working on a "there is no sexism in Italy" theory that I will propose to you all real soon.
The only man ever to call me baby without receiving a glare was Italian. Just saying.
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How you doin'?
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<giggle>
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You also oddly left out the part where a Canadian player nearly murders an opponent and is met by the huge opprobrium of being selected for the Olympic team. I remain somewhat baffled by the selective approach, and saying that sports is a business therefore doesn't count makes no sense.
It's relevant as a counter to a different point than mine, maybe... but my point was that people in Canada behave in a way that is moderated by the opposite sex's approval, and that this moderation may not even be genuine - people will go to much greater lengths to mask bitchy behaviour and couch it in more subtle things than the scene I described.
My point was similar to an observation my cousin made about the differences between NZ and Canada in terms of racisim... she said Canada was a very racist country under the surface, but in NZ it was kosher to be racist and out. In both cases the point was that Canadian's behaviour is moderated by the opinion of the person observing them, and they are much, much more circumspect in their outward behaviour - whatever their inward feelings - than cultures where a kind of brutality is encouraged.
So there's clearly a bit bubbling under the surface, as well.
JackElder's whole post, and especially this quote absolutely nails both mine and my cousin's points.
So while you guys (Gio and Kyle) think you're countering a point I've made, you're actually just chasing your own tails.
I would totally have yelled at that guy, and in my currently rather brief time as a parent I've also noticed that mothers and fathers pretty much *always* make eye contact (or more) with each other in stressful situations for their children.
Yeah, as a woman who is not a parent, who nearly got punched in a service station for deigning to tell a woman it might not be appropriate to talk to a child like that,
Danielle, Megan, aroha nui to you both for this. I think it's the right thing to do as well. I wish you guys had been there the time I was assaulted in practically the same spot in the park while running.
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