Hard News: Veitch
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Kerry, I am so sorry about your nephew, and I quite agree - suicide attempts as a manipulative tool leaves a horrible taste. I have tried not to be cynical about how this man's actions. I have no doubt he needs some sort of help. It just seems so staged, all of it. Glenda Hughes must be regretting her decision to take him on, and I suspect she wouldn't be the only one.
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Russell, how's that edit tool coming along????
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I'm sure he's down in the garden shed carving one from driftwood as we speak..
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Kerry, I am very sorry. My sympathies - as well as I can express them...
Even in the 'cry for help' incidents, it's not impossible to feel sympathy (of course that's the point, but...). A person I have known for some years had made three attempts so far and caused a lot of pain, but nonetheless, I can see what sort of place that they're in, with a terrible personal history. I'm torn between outrage at the suffering that they propagate and my regard and sympathy for them, because they have also, in other people's crises, been devotedly supportive and strong. I can't make a 'choice' between these two sides or feelings - life is just not that simple. One has to steer a course for them, somehow...
Another person, an immediate family member, tried at least two times also and now has a wonderful life.
One let go, one refuses, but then the first has been treated for their whole life with such injustice, they simply haven't learned how to deal with any other kind of situation. I think one day they will succeed.
I've also had to deal with a number of students who have been in the 'overwhelmed' category. One had dyslexia and described themself as having two aspects: one was confident, fluent, talented, and the other, who struggled to put together a coherent phrase on paper was 'stupid' and made the first aspect seem like a sham. They'd have been told by their friends 'No, you're OK, you've no reason to worry, your fears aren't real' because they were so outwardly talented, but they'd take the reassurance sceptically because it implied an incomprehension of anxieties that were overwhelming, and which therefore couldn't be communicated or taken seriously by others.
(We seem to get a lot of people with dyslexia at art, design and architecture schools, because they have visual and social skills, but apart from studio papers, I teach history, where they have to write essays. History being a core course in most such institutions, they have to pass or they don't get their degree or their life's ambition. That's where they come to grief.)
I could have sent this student to a counsellor and washed my hands of the matter and they did see a counsellor, but people like that need understanding teachers too, otherwise the internal division continues. Often too they are very reluctant to see a counsellor in any case as it means opening themselves up too much to too many strangers and appeal directly to the person who gives them the tangible grades.
In that person's case, fully moderated, they went from D to B+. They live.
Sometimes, perhaps, someone who seems just a bit too happy when at other times they had spoken of their sense of fundamental self-doubt a while back before clamming up on the subject is one to watch more closely than the one who has a complete Joy Division collection.
I think I can see where your nephew was coming from, maybe. Perhaps he felt that he had let himself down as well.
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It makes me very cross indeed when people play with suicide as a manipulative thing.
That is a line that needs further discussion. What is an appropriate method of expressing a death wish, without the risk of vilification. Like what the psychological report says, suicidal behavior. Its a symptom of an illness. Suicidal ideation (thinking about it) suicidal behavior (acting on it).
Symptoms of illness, but now the next question is, what is the illness? as has been pointed out, some illnesses include personality disorders. And that must be a hell of a thing to treat. -
It just seems so staged, all of it.
Jackie, I note that you say 'seems', not 'is', so please take what I say with my knowledge of your use in mind. The point I was trying to make in my characteristically overelaborate way above is that a lot of manipulative behaviour is indeed systematic in a way, but unconscious and compulsive. A lot of rationalisation is in fact postrationalisation.
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"postrationalisation." anxious hindsight?
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a lot of manipulative behaviour is indeed systematic in a way, but unconscious and compulsive.
oh, absolutely, kracklite - and I would hope this may be the case here. I just find the ringing of all the available media outlets first somewhat not particularly unconcious.
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Hmmm, yes, but he's been marinated in media for years, and that must have a warping effect. Remind me never to become famous.
I can't believe that I'm being Advocatus Diaboli here...
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I just find the ringing of all the available media outlets first somewhat notparticularly unconcious.
Much as I feel icky discussing this: to put those calls back in context, he phoned them during the episode (not "first") to implore them to publish historical correspondence showing how remorseful he had been towards Dunne-Powell. If his depression truly was precipitated by the feeling that the public hadn't bought his apology, those contacts seem consistent with how Veitch would behave in a genuine moment of distress.
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<Disclaimer:speculation>
I suspect that there is less media conspiracy going on than meets the eye. It could be the TV really do's have a dumbing down affect. But I concede, that theory doesn't explain why the tabloids are so popular.
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Thanks, Jackie and Kracklite. I'm open about it all because I do believe it needs to be aired, it's still stigmatised because people are afraid to deal with it openly.
For the family and friends left behind it exposes all the weaknesses, amplifies them. People tear themselves apart, and others apart, in their pain. I'll admit something awful -- I've never been able to discuss it with my brother (his father), in the years since. I have the feeling his pain is stored so deep that to dig for it would be cruel.
And like others here, I get the Black Dog nipping at my heels, as does one of my sons. It was dealing with his major depression that, on the one hand, ignited my anger about the pitiful level of help available for teens in distress and, on the other, forced me to have faith in my own methods of dealing with it. One of which was to make sure he had no opportunity to be alone and do anything fatal. It was like being on Home D. for a year.
I also kept up contact with nature - bush walks, beach, river. Kept all stress at bay. Let him sleep. Didn't harass him to talk, but let him know I was there, would always go in to bat for him. And just retold stories, allegories. And got him to cook! Stories and cooking ...sounds like I'm channelling Islander! Aue!
i was never going to let another loved one slip through my fingers like that. And, now, three years later, he's making up for losing 2-3 years of school, he's just started playing guitar, and most wonderful of all - he laughs and cracks jokes.
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If his depression truly was precipitated by the feeling that the public hadn't bought his apology, those contacts seem consistent with how Veitch would behave in a genuine moment of distress.
Remembering too, that his career depends largely on the public liking - or at the very least not disliking - him.
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"Glenda Hughes must be regretting her decision to take him on, and I suspect she wouldn't be the only one."
Jackie I recon she'll be regretting this all the way to the bank. This is what she does and she'll be in the wings for the next rich dick to fall.
As for Veitch he's incredibly honest and he is depressed and not seeing the world clearly at all. Hence the "why me" & "I was driven to it".
If there are two TV "stars" who pulled it off the crime & contrition stuff and then back to business it has to be our two narco celebs [Just thinking, please think a little harder before you type. Apart from it being unnecessary, one of the names you used here was plain wrong. Show some restraint -- RB]
10 Pts if you name the All Black who killed someone, got convicted and then got Reality TV jobs.
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Ah, congratulations!
I find that my own Black Dog does not haunt hilltops and pine trees at sunset (lots of Kaka, though).
Actually, that's a good marker - if someone stops doing the things that make them feel good, such as bush walks, then guide them back into taking the simple pleasures again.
The good news is, I think, that people who have known serious depression, provided that they are well out of it, have learned themselves how to cope better than most 'normal' people when they later have a tough period in their lives - provided that too much doesn't pile up all at once.
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Kerry - wow. Well done. Wow.
It's hard enough parenting teenagers* without extra lumps thrown in. You're a bloody star.
Something that is often repeated, and that I found to be true for myself, is that one of the hardest things about losing someone close is that people stop talking about them and it becomes like they never existed. You know your brother best, but I would urge you to consider letting him know that you miss your nephew and that you're there if he ever wants you to be. Perhaps write a letter. That way he doesn't have to reply if he's not comfortable talking about it.
*Free to good home - one 17-year old. As is, where is.
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It makes me very cross indeed when people play with suicide as a manipulative thing.
That is a line that needs further discussion. What is an appropriate method of expressing a death wish, without the risk of vilification
Well, to go all Freudian, Sigmund believed in a death drive didn't he? Like you're kind of inexorably attracted to it, because the fear of death is at once crippling and magnetic. Long, drawn-out self-destructive behaviour, like addiction, is another form of death wish.
My implicit point in posting about my nephew was that he had one go at it - there were no attempts, nor any distraught communications or even depressive episode that we knew about. In a strange way, i found this comforting. It was calculated, planned, no rescue required.
In the case of suicide ideation, and failed attempts, i guess one can't generalise about how to handle it. But I've observed others handle it by pretending it hasn't happened and not mentioning the "S" word and hurrying the victim off to counselling. That isn't how I'd deal with it. I don't mean I'd tell them off and say what a bad person they are for trying it, rather, relate in story-form, what the consequences are. And let them know, emphatically, that they matter to me. Doing something, as simple as taking them out for a walk, or coffee, staying in touch is really important, rather than endless talking. You can't live someone's life for them or make the life/death decision.
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10 Pts if you name the All Black who killed someone, got convicted and then got Reality TV jobs.
We do chocolate fish.
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I understand that Kracklite's diagnosis upthread seemed a step too far to some of you -- at the same time as I think it rang true in light of the recent very public events in the media, and stuff I know that hasn't been public.
It's difficult to know where to moderate a discussion like this, but I've been inclined to let things stand on grounds that they are producing valid discussion of how and when people get to bad places.
I am now at the stage of feeling sorry for Veitch, but also marvelling at the extent to which someone's personality can lead astray people who were supposed to be his calm, professional helpers.
In the end, many people are suffering out of this.
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Kerry - wow. Well done. Wow.
It's hard enough parenting teenagers* without extra lumps thrown in. You're a bloody star.
She is. I worked that out a while ago.
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"The only people who have access to the police caption of summary are myself, the officer in charge of the case, the Crown and Mr Veitch and his team," he told Radio New Zealand.
My understanding is that the information leaked to the SST was from the summary before the court that the defense had access to (which is rather obvious, since the defense submitted the accusations in the first place).
I think you're correct in saying that Hughes had the Sunday News and her pet seat-sniiffer Carolyne Meng-Yee at the HoS write matching stories trivialising the assault but this was almost certainly in response to media queries to Veitch about the details from the court summary. There is simply no way Team Veitch wanted those details made public when there was still a chance to avoid a legal hearing.
And anecdotally - for what it's worth - I've asked one journalist how they could justify helping Veitch use their newspaper to relentlessly attack a women he'd assaulted and crippled, and the justification was that Dunne-Powell was using the media to attack Veitch and it would have been unethical not to allow him the opportunity to respond. Obviously there are a whole lot of problems with that statement, but Veitch's rather deranged approach to the whole affair does make a lot more sense when seen in that context.
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Sunday 19th April 2009
SUNDAY PROGRAMME CANCELS VEITCH INTERVIEW TONIGHTThe Sunday Programme has decided to cancel the interview Cameron Bennett did with Tony Veitch that was going to run on tonight’s show.
“It doesn’t seem fair to Kristen Dunne-Powell or Tony Veitch to air the interview knowing now that it was filmed when Tony was obviously unwell and his state of mind was fragile”, said TVNZ Current Affairs Editor, John Gillespie.
“Cameron Bennett and the Sunday team were upset to hear about Tony last night and agreed to the piece being pulled from air”.
“We would like to pass on our best wishes to Tony for his convalescence and to the Veitch and Dunne-Powell families for the future”.
Nice spin, Mr. Gillespie. Whilst I agree with the decision, I can't help feeling that any non-"celeb" would have a snowball's chance of effecting the same result.
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One of my family who seriously tried suicide, did so after nearly 3 years of severe clinical depression. Was on medication, had counselling, attempted other methods (like walking, and meditation)- but the depression seemed relentless. Decided to die. Hired a motel room (left lavish tip & contact details for afterwards)took sleeping pills, quite an amount of alcohol, filled bath with warm water, cut wrists-
should've worked.
By an odd set of coincidences, estranged spouse talked to workmates that same day & learned partner had not been at work, or communicating, for some time. Drove round small city frantically after partner not at home (this is before widespread cellphone useage) and noticed a familiar vehicle in motel port...
it took another loong year, with much input from whanau & hitherto estranged spouse, but the depression - went away. And there were some happy years before a terminal illness finally ended life.
The one successful suicidee - a cousin I really liked- had had an appalling childhood but had 'got over that' (his words.) Was working as an apprentice mechanic, had a semiserious partner (his words), and a car he truly loved. He drove it at over 100mph (police expert estimation) into the side of a concrete ramp in a remote area. He wasnt drunk (he hated alcohol) or drugged. He had posted a note that day that simply read "Sorry. Too much pain."
The point of these family stories is simply to tautoko Kerry - some suicides are very planned & deliberate & cause pain ever after -but that wasnt the intent- and to agree with Kracklite - there are other kind of suicide-attempts (none i te whanau) I have been quite close to, which (consiously or unconsiously - but certainly not rationally) are cries-for-help/manipulative.
Take a moment to enjoy family/friend closeness; music; food/wine(whatever!); good air - maybe it's salt? Flower-enriched?
Evening bird song. Any beauty about you. Your computer - even if it isnt a Mac :) Kia ora tatou- -
Take a moment to enjoy family/friend closeness; music; food/wine(whatever!); good air - maybe it's salt? Flower-enriched?
Evening bird song. Any beauty about you. Your computer - even if it isnt a Mac :)Indeed.
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</quote>there are other kind of suicide-attempts (none i te whanau) I have been quite close to, which (consiously or unconsiously - but certainly not rationally) are cries-for-help/manipulative.</quote>
One of the very first things I was taught when I worked in mental health: do not feel personally betrayed or deceived, understand that the manipulation is part of the diseased mental state.
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