Yellow Peril: Are you gonna liberate us girls from male, white, corporate oppression?
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...the revelation in this particular case was those astounding 25-to-1 AOL figures. I know it's a small part of the net, and perhaps we're different round these here parts, but seriously, twenty-five to one???
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Okay, look - I don't see where I was 'tarring' anyone with the same 'white boy' brush as any evil imperialist, when I said 'white boy's playground'. In an earlier draft of the post, I even referred to whether we 'girls' wanted to 'play' or 'not play' in said sandpit considering the hygienic conditions, followed by an elaborate riff on gendered toys. But it was already a pretty long post, and that part was the wrap-up. The statement of race and gender was a fact, the 'infantilisation' was a joke, and one I assumed the 'nice white liberal boy' readership would have the self-deprecation to take okay, rather than as nasty patronisation. Some have, some haven't. Russell, I'm sorry that you think I was bullying to Steven, and I'm sorry to Steven if he feels bullied. However, yes, I still think it is precious for some of these guys to have been so incensed: and the fact that from the post, this was the one to have occupied a substantial part of what they were interested in, is definitely sad in my view. When I said this post and thread was 'dedicated' to women, I meant not prescriptively, but obviously in terms of context, content and feeling, in the way you might dedicate a song on the radio, and I think it is sad that one or two people thought even this was necessary to contest. Doesn't mean they don't have a right to say that; I just think it's sad. It makes me sad, that's for sure.
In terms of Manakura, as you say:
I'm sure there was a fatigue factor,
That's all I was specifically talking about, in the context of Anjum's comment. Still, one doesn't have to be receiving a hiding on blogsites to experience different kinds of fatigue, when you are in the position of being the sole person repping your 'race' in a forum, even a really really nice one. Anjum will know what I mean, and so does Manakura, although I won't speak for him here!
In that vein, I think I'm done here. [throws toys]
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Jesus you people are fast. Don't you work?
A few things at a time...
Andrew Llewellyn - me too with the hand-delivered god-bothering, but replace "SPCS" with "Destiny" and "Dom Post" with "Herald". That was about the point where I started making sure I'd considered the likelyhood of any real benefit before using my real name in public forums. I still use it, but only in environments where I tend to think the readership are likely to be reliably sane.
Heather - no dispute from me that gender discrimination exists and is common in our society. But my viewpoint on the issue of online harassment is that it's a practical issue with practical solutions. It happens because people put their names and channels of communication out there in public, which is a choice that you do get to make. Yes, being a woman makes you a higher profile target and that's not fair. But the problem and the available solutions are identical to those faced by anybody else who's the target of abuse online - often those holding controversial opinions. As such I don't see that raising the problem as a gender-specific issue is going to address any practical solution. If somebody could outline to me how exactly it would solve the problem then I'd be thrilled to listen, but it strikes me that the time would be more fruitfully spent discussing approaches to creating online forums where such problems can be integrated into the design considerations and minimised. I'd like to see the problem solved as much as anybody, but feminist blog days seems about as likely to solve it as, say, a good word from Bono.
Tze Ming - I think your misunderstanding lies in the fact that you believe it possible to self-deprecate other people.
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3410,
I agree, Tze Ming. This is so overblown.
Out of all the jokes made on PA, some of them infinitely more cutting, this one gets all the attention?!
Makes you wonder if there's not some reason for it.
I note that this was your first post in six weeks, which suggests that you might be dealing with competing priorities at the moment. I sincerely hope that the ridiculous direction this thread has taken does not put you off for good.
Looking forward to your returning with a blistering critique of this hypocracy. Kia Kaha.
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But the problem and the available solutions are identical to those faced by anybody else who's the target of abuse online - often those holding controversial opinions. As such I don't see that raising the problem as a gender-specific issue is going to address any practical solution.
But I don't think it's identical. The Kathy Sierra case, which started all this, went from escalating sexual threats and a nasty Photoshopped picture to some creep posting her home address. I was astonished that some apparently sensible people could regard her as the baddie (sorry, "attention whore") after that.
I do think women online are more vulnerable than men. I can't recall a case of a male blogger being subject to that kind of sexual threat, but I can think of a few blogs where you'll see misogyny most days. So if some people want to mobilise and highlight that fact, I think it's a good thing.
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Lindsay Beyerstein also talks about this in her blog, with a few examples. Majikthise is a great blog, BTW.
She makes good points and underlines the unifying theme that we can, at least, see in this thread despite the disagreements. No one likes this stuff and when it happens, people should be able to count on fellow posters for support. I think they could at PA. -
BTW, I've just talked to Karen Gregory-Hunt for a story on online abuse she's doing for Radio NZ.
Usual stuff: the problem's not technology, it's people; this isn't entirely new, but no one's licked the "not turning into Usenet" problem; what came out from under rocks in the Kathy Sierra case wasn't so pretty; and, yes, women are vulnerable in these situations in a way men aren't.
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Russell, my point about the similarity is not in the style of the abuse, it's in the severity. As I recounted earlier, I've seen somebody subjected to that kind of abuse inside the last year who is white, male and otherwise fairly nondescript other than having an involvement in an activity that is controversial in certain circles. Photoshopped pictures? Yup. Home address? Yup. Sexual threats? No. But that's more to do with the fact that such threats are generally not as psychologically harmful to males than females - otherwise I've little doubt they would have been in there too. Instead they just threatened his mother, and the abuse included calls made to his home. The police were involved. The whole thing was kept private, as he is notable in certain circles and he would rather keep his public image related to what he does than what has been done to him by others.
When I saw the Kathy Sierra case hit the blogs, my immediate reaction was “oh, somebody’s decided to go public with their experience”, not to be utterly shocked that such things were occurring. Because I’ve seen it happen. And since my only experience of seeing it unfold has been targeted at a male victim it seems bizarre to me to treat the broader issue as primarily one of male-on-female aggression. Other stories posted in this thread have included examples of homophobic abuse and women abusing women. I don’t doubt that women are at higher risk of being targeted online, but it seems a waste of a good opportunity to do something about the whole problem if Kathy Sierra’s experience is treated as a gender issue alone.
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Out of all the jokes made on PA, some of them infinitely more cutting, this one gets all the attention?!
Makes you wonder if there's not some reason for it.
Ahem. People have a right to express offence in civil terms. You have a right to believe they're overdoing it. But responding with open-ended speculation on their motives, character or secret beliefs isn't helpful.
Pastoral blogsite-owner over and out ...
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3410,
This is too wierd. I'm out too.
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Out of all the jokes made on PA, some of them infinitely more cutting, this one gets all the attention?!
Makes you wonder if there's not some reason for it.An alert went out on the secret White Boy Wire (a network of corporate stooges, misogynists, colonisers and private school old boys) telling us to man the barricades and defend our hegemonic superiority. Your secret decoder ring didn't vibrate? </light-hearted sarcasm>
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Sheeesh, I can't believe how this thread has degenerated.
Any of the precious and offended notice the title? Yellow Peril. I think that implies that references to ethnicity via colour are meant with just a little bit of mirth and irony.
Steven if you want to throw yourself in the middle of something to argue your point in an aggressive and direct manner, don’t be surprised if people return the favour, and don’t suddenly get upset if not everyone praises your magnificent contributions.
Russell I would have thought that if you couldn’t manage loyalty to other contributors you might at least but out. I have a lot of respect for your journalism but your judgement in some your comments on this thread is way off.
The course of this conversation has really proved Tze's points regarding the disproportionate amount of shit thrown at female commentators, especially if they aren’t also white and dare to challenge white men. I doubt she would feel particularly vindicated or pleased though. I only hope she does continue to make more submissions. I doubt I will. -
Sheeesh, I can't believe how this thread has degenerated.
Any of the precious and offended notice the title? Yellow Peril. I think that implies that references to ethnicity via colour are meant with just a little bit of mirth and irony.
Steven if you want to throw yourself in the middle of something to argue your point in an aggressive and direct manner, don’t be surprised if people return the favour, and don’t suddenly get upset if not everyone praises your magnificent contributions.
Russell I would have thought that if you couldn’t manage loyalty to other contributors you might at least but out. I have a lot of respect for your journalism but your judgement in some your comments on this thread is way off.
The course of this conversation has really proved Tze's points regarding the disproportionate amount of shit thrown at female commentators, especially if they aren’t also white and dare to challenge white men. I doubt she would feel particularly vindicated or pleased though. I only hope she does continue to make more submissions. I doubt I will. -
I too am surprised at the turn this discussion has taken.
There is certainly a problem with all kinds of online harrassment, but surely a blog for Take Back The Blog, an initiative set up to show support for Kathy Sierra, doesn't need to be full of "what about teh menz!!1!!"
The thread kinda got hijacked...in response to the hijack I've included a link (i hope) to Chris Clarke of Pandagon's excellent response to the Kathy Sierra/Kos debacle.
I implore you all to take a gander at it.
Chris Clarke is a white boy, by the way.[I have fixed this link - TMM]
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I'll try that link again, otherwise try the ol' cut and paste.
[ [http://pandagon.net/2007/04/13/how-to-not-be-an-asshole-a-guide-for-men/] ]
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Any of the precious and offended notice the title? Yellow Peril. I think that implies that references to ethnicity via colour are meant with just a little bit of mirth and irony.
Yes, but as noted earlier, there is a difference between self-referential humour and comments directed at others. To reference the recent Don Imus furore in the States, a black girl calling herself a "nappy-headed ho" is a whole different situation to a white man using the same term on the radio.
Yes, this thread has grown into something out of proportion to Tze Ming's throwaway comment. But hey, how often do us white middle-class males get to call for some Political Correctness to demarginalise us? ;)
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Russell I would have thought that if you couldn’t manage loyalty to other contributors you might at least but out. I have a lot of respect for your journalism but your judgement in some your comments on this thread is way off.
I'm really sorry you feel that way, but I commented because I thought the discussion was getting a bit untoward - I do that occasionally. Perhaps that was counterproductive in this case, but Tze Ming's my friend, and I thought I could take her up on the tone of her response.
The course of this conversation has really proved Tze's points regarding the disproportionate amount of shit thrown at female commentators, especially if they aren’t also white and dare to challenge white men. I doubt she would feel particularly vindicated or pleased though. I only hope she does continue to make more submissions. I doubt I will.
Woah. I think "throwing shit" is taking it a bit far. These are sensitive topics, and people have feelings about them, personal feelings included. I think they've largely been expressed without rancour. I'm happy to "butt out" if that helps, but I don't think the discussion has been entirely unhelpful.
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Yes, this thread has grown into something out of proportion to Tze Ming's throwaway comment. But hey, how often do us white middle-class males get to call for some Political Correctness to demarginalise us? ;)
Yes, that occurred to me too ...
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Out of all the jokes made on PA, some of them infinitely more cutting, this one gets all the attention?!
Makes you wonder if there's not some reason for it.Sheeesh, I can't believe how this thread has degenerated.
Any of the precious and offended notice the title? Yellow Peril. I think that implies that references to ethnicity via colour are meant with just a little bit of mirth and irony.I too am surprised at the turn this discussion has taken.
There is certainly a problem with all kinds of online harrassment, but surely a blog for Take Back The Blog, an initiative set up to show support for Kathy Sierra, doesn't need to be full of "what about teh menz!!1!!"The course of this conversation has really proved Tze's points regarding the disproportionate amount of shit thrown at female commentators, especially if they aren’t also white and dare to challenge white men.
It's more than disingenuous to dismissively sniff that the Public Address Comments System is 'a white boy's playground', follow this up with the self-righteous speculation that this is because all the women are out 'teaching our children and nursing our sick' and then POST these insights on Public Address and act all indignant and bewildered when people take umbrage.
The critical response is nothing to do with gender bias - I suggest that if someone were to post an entry on this site pointlessly attacking another Public Address demographic - say, Mac users - for no fathomable reason they'd get an even colder response. The only difference is that the instigator wouldn't be able to resort to special pleading or hiding behind their ethnicity or gender as an excuse for their rudeness.
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Nanoplanet - I don't think you're really on strong ground telling somebody to butt out on a forum they paid for the development of and who pays for the servers that host it. Tze Ming would be well within her rights to expect discussion of her posts to be polite and considered, but claiming that polite - if notable - disagreement with her views represents "a disproportionate amount of shit" is facile. People aren't disagreeing because she's a girl, it's because they think she's wrong. Or is the fact that she's a girl so overwhelmingly important that we're to ignore the content of her posts or the strength of her arguments? I mean, isn't it cute - a girl! Posting on the internet! Wow. Please note, easily confused, that I'm being sarcastic.
Anorak - What? How the hell is it hijacking a thread to disagree on an issue? Hijacking would be if the subject had been diverted. At no point has anybody attempt to diminish what happened to Kathy Sierra, or to state that it was acceptable. However, opinions over how to best prevent such problems ocurring in future vary. Reducing what I presume to be my posts to a facile mockery in miXeD CaSe is cheap. If you've got something to say to me then quote me and reply to what I said, please.
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But hey, how often do us white middle-class males get to call for some Political Correctness to demarginalise us?
Yeah. Too right. Let's all pile in and tell this...person, where to get off! How dare she use loaded terms to describe our poor, marginalised selves. I mean...
white!
boys!
playground!Jeez, this is pretty close to the bone, I reckon. Calling it offensive is a pretty mild reaction if you ask me...
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Finn,
I'm sorry if you were offended by my use of internet slang.
My cases, however, are not mixed. I used capitals for proper nouns.
I think this thread was hijacked when it stopped being about online harrassment which disproportionately targets women, and possible solutions to that harrassment, and became about whether or not "white boys" is an offensive term.
I urge you to read the blog post I linked to , which is getting more pertinent with every post. -
All right.
Mustering whatever mana I have here, I think it's time to declare this part of the discussion closed, because it only seems likely to repeat itself. Either carry on with the main topic or post in another thread, thanks.
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OK - well, I don't post on any other blogs or at any other forums beyond my closed group of mothers because on the interwebby, as in real life, I don't like shouting, I don't like ranting and I don't like personal abuse.
I nearly ran away from here because of d4j's polemics. And I don't much like some of the stuff on this thread, which I'm carefully not reading.
Yeah, I guess I'm a wimp or a coward or something.
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I urge you to read the blog post I linked to , which is getting more pertinent with every post.
Good post. And jeez, what a mammoth (and occasionally pretty weird) comments thread.
But unless I've got it wrong and should just STFU (nb: should there be any doubt, this is a flippant aside whose relevance will be evident to anyone who reads that thread), the parts about real-life safety put me in mind of something that happened years ago.
I was walking down Ponsonby Rd late at night, before it was open late at night, or very well lit, and a woman came out of a side street just behind me. Acting on the not-being-a-potential-threat principle, I picked up my stride to put some distance between us. But I didn't seem to be making any ground on her. Indeed, her footfalls seemed to be quickening.
I'd just got into a really brisk stride when she called out.
"Excuse me!" she said. "Could I walk with you? I'd feel safer ..."
Oh.
I explained to her what I'd been thinking, we both laughed, and we walked safely up the road to her street and bid each other good evening.
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