Hard News: Getting to the bottom of Apple and human cost
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WH, in reply to
But it also feeds into a strong American narrative that seeks to frame the current unemployment rates in the US as something done to the US by China - witness the frequent references to a "trade war" - without considering the internal decisions that have contributed to it. For instance, a very significant number of jobs lost in this latest recession have been lost in the name of government austerity. I believe it's about half a percentage point worth of unemployment. That's huge
Paul Krugman has written a lot about the effect of balanced budget requirements at the local level. Even though the Obama Administration is running a US$1 trillion budget deficit in an attempt to revive the economy, the states are having to cut spending and lay off workers, which heavily offsets the effect. It seems perverse, but the Republicans are using the language of austerity to turn Obama's attempt to fix the problem against him.
Obviously the question of manufacturing practices in China is important - that's why it's getting attention. But it's not okay for it to get attention at the expense of internal American problems, and it's very easy for that to happen.
Although America seems to have it's hands full right now, I'm not sure that the New York Times has handled this badly. Apple is the one of the world's biggest companies, and it has at times benefitted from rose tinted coverage I'm sure that many US progressives (many of whom love the NYT) are concerned about the behaviour of US corporates abroad, and rightly so. I agree that we can really only wish people in the developing world happiness and prosperity. Noone wins a race to the bottom. Hopefully the next few decades bring a gradual convergence.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Hopefully the next few decades bring a gradual convergence
Yes, hopefully, as an optimistic worst case. Personally, I'm trying my best to work out how such a gradual convergence could be avoided, and how countries like the US, which have a long history of productive industry, could get that back sooner rather than later. It's all to easy to be apathetic in the face of history, but when it's history that hasn't yet unfolded, I'm not buying it. We're human, we have the power to change things. Well I am, anyway, I don't know about anyone else for sure, but it seems likely. I find it impossible to believe that there is no solution by which people perfectly capable of work and willing to do it, can't organize to do it, and prosper. That is modern madness, the schizophrenia of apathy.
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I'd just like the American media to remember that China/India/Whereeverstan did not steal those jobs - they were freely sent there by American corporate managers.
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merc, in reply to
...or the EPA.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Noone wins a race to the bottom.
With the possible exception of gated community developers and other branches of the security-industrial complex.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
That means that we get into the mode of thinking that it’s all about trying to maintain high levels of employment, and avoids/ignores the point that the entire purpose of industry is to create enough things, and if there are enough things, we don’t have to work so much.
I seem to remember that in the 50s we were told that automation would mean we all had more leisure time.
Yeah, right.It is a world that’s mostly carrots and very few sticks. Sticks would only be needed to prevent actual crime, and crime would be considerably less attractive than just picking up the carrots one needs.
They will always invent new crimes to keep the poverty stricken in check.
In Boulder, Colorado they have a medical marijuana system, this is mostly to allow the middle classes to have a good supply of dak and at the same time persecute the lower classes for drug "cimes" -
Steve Barnes, in reply to
Noone wins a race to the bottom.
That would depend on who's bottom you were talking about.
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Lucy Stewart, in reply to
I find it impossible to believe that there is no solution by which people perfectly capable of work and willing to do it, can’t organize to do it, and prosper.
No solution? Of course not. But the system as it is (in America especially, but more generally as well) doesn't work if people aren't desperate for jobs. First you have to move to some economic form where unemployment and accompanying poverty are bugs, not features.
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BenWilson, in reply to
First you have to move to some economic form where unemployment and accompanying poverty are bugs, not features.
Yes, poverty is the bug. Unemployment is inevitable. In fact, it should actually be desirable, the very thing that shows that production is more than sufficient. We get more and more desperate to invent work every year. We have to manufacture demand. But when crunch time comes, it's amazing how fast manufactured demand disappears and the economy relying on it crumbles to nothing.
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nzlemming, in reply to
We have to manufacture demand.
Bingo! When the economy/society is based around consumption rather than sufficiency, the rest is inevitable.
This is not to say Soviet Russia had the answers with their 5 year plan(s). The problem for them was that they tried to out do the US without the built in money pump of consumerism. Their military was their industrial complex. What they missed about the US MIC was that the industrial component has other customers besides the military. If the USSR had decided not to be a superpower and threaten to take over Europe etc., they might just have mad it work. Or not – it’s all theoretical now.
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Sue,
Mike Daisey responds to stephen fry
http://mikedaisey.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/stop-stephen-fry-from-being-idiot.html -
nzlemming, in reply to
I think Daisey is too busy being clever and outraged to be coherent. I still prefer Worstall's diatribe.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
But it also feeds into a strong American narrative that seeks to frame the current unemployment rates in the US as something done to the US by China – witness the frequent references to a “trade war” – without considering the internal decisions that have contributed to it.
A similar kind of thing happened in the 1970s & 80s with Japanese cars. In large part because Detroit’s Big 3 back then were incapable of thinking small after the Oil Crises, and when Americans wanted to downsize their cars, Japan was only too happy to oblige.
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WH,
Personally, I'm trying my best to work out how such a gradual convergence could be avoided, and how countries like the US, which have a long history of productive industry, could get that back sooner rather than later.
Yeah. You've got hope it works out. Things haven't been looking too good for the average US worker though. In some ways Apple is a good example of what a high technology society can achieve. There must be more Teslas and Jobs out there, which is quite exciting really.
I find it impossible to believe that there is no solution by which people perfectly capable of work and willing to do it, can't organize to do it, and prosper.
In some ways unemployment is a strange thing, but I suppose it's one of the features of a distributed production allocation system. You've got to hope that we can find better ways to do and make the things we want. I've come to suspect that a lot of our problems come from the fact that we are so competitive - it's not how much we have that counts, its where we stand in the hierarchy that matters.
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Lucy Stewart, in reply to
I’ve come to suspect that a lot of our problems come from the fact that we are so competitive – it’s not how much we have that counts, its where we stand in the hierarchy that matters.
"We're Better Than Those People" is the unofficial motto of 99% of human history.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Yeah. You’ve got hope it works out. Things haven’t been looking too good for the average US worker though. In some ways Apple is a good example of what a high technology society can achieve. There must be more Teslas and Jobs out there, which is quite exciting really.
The prospects are still good for a new Jobs, less so for a new Tesla.
One issue is the one Jobs raised with Obama: training. The Western world does not train many engineers now.
The other is now of mass. It is hard in Western economies to match the extraordinary mobilisation of resources we see in China or Vietnam, because (as Keir pointed out) those countries are industrialising and the West has long since done that.
Even Jobs had the benefit of being adjacent to actual manufacturing as a kid. He wouldn't now.
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BenWilson, in reply to
I've come to suspect that a lot of our problems come from the fact that we are so competitive - it's not how much we have that counts, its where we stand in the hierarchy that matters.
Word. Especially since one of the easiest ways to maintain position is to keep others down.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Word. Especially since one of the easiest ways to maintain position is to keep others down.
Sadly true. Once again, Paul Graham's Why Nerds Are Unpopular comes to mind.
"Another reason kids persecute nerds is to make themselves feel better. When you tread water, you lift yourself up by pushing water down. Likewise, in any social hierarchy, people unsure of their own position will try to emphasize it by maltreating those they think rank below. I've read that this is why poor whites in the United States are the group most hostile to blacks.
Like a politician who wants to distract voters from bad times at home, you can create an enemy if there isn't a real one. By singling out and persecuting a nerd, a group of kids from higher in the hierarchy create bonds between themselves. Attacking an outsider makes them all insiders. This is why the worst cases of bullying happen with groups. Ask any nerd: you get much worse treatment from a group of kids than from any individual bully, however sadistic."
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
I think Daisey is too busy being clever and outraged to be coherent.
True.
He says...we only know a large number of people were throwing themselves off of the roof of the workplace, again and again....
...if people kill themselves over and over in the same dramatic way at their workplace, it means something.We all know you can only kill yourself once.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
Crook as a chook...
I haven’t been to the US for a while, but I’ve avoided eating chicken there since I read a Harper’s story (predating Schlosser’s book) on the plane over one time.
you'll be pleased to hear that McDonald's© have stopped using the 'Pink Slime' in their hamburgers, but there still may be dimethylpolysiloxane in the McNuggets....
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
you’ll be pleased to hear that McDonald’s© have stopped using the ‘Pink Slime’ in their hamburgers, but there still may be dimethylpolysiloxane in the McNuggets….
Food fight @McD's = chemical warfare?
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dimethylpolysiloxane
Which as far as I can see has never been shown to be toxic or mutagenic by ingestion.
OTOH, go and buy the most expensive organic fillet steak from Moore Wilson, BBQ it until nicely charred at the edges and you just made a whole load of benzopyrenes, which *are* proven carcinogens.
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nzlemming, in reply to
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BenWilson, in reply to
BBQ it until nicely charred at the edges and you just made a whole load of benzopyrenes, which *are* proven carcinogens.
Burnt bacon is definitely my favourite carcinogen, steak is nicer rare.
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nzlemming, in reply to
Burnt bacon is definitely my favourite carcinogen, steak is nicer rare.
So's bacon, While it's still, y'know, meat.
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