Hard News: No Bills
119 Responses
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By definition, you can't car-pool on your own.
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My belief is folks are voting Green essentially for Greenness, not for the sideshow agenda's that Kedgley and co. seem so keen on chucking out
I didn't - I voted Green because, in short, they're the only electable party on the liberal/left side of Labour. I agree with about 75% of their policies and can live with the rest (for instance, if people want to use ineffective therapies for self-limiting conditions, then why not).
With Labour, I probably agree with a similar number of their policies but disagree so fundamentally on some of the rest that I'd never vote for them.
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Sue,
I'm with Rich
i know a pile of people who voted green to slide labour away from the right.Just like a i know a pile who vote ACT to slide National away from the left
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That's the Green dilemma - They're more than just Green but it's hard to market Social Justice (which for all my bitching I might vote for them this time - might see what Jimbo has to offer - I can't remember the name of his party).
Is there any movement for true democracy by referendum?
Might stuff up the whole MMP as I hate parties - BBQs are much better.
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Isn't social justice kind of the opposite of majority rule ?
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Why would referendum result in Democracy being thrown to the wolves, ripped apart and savaged?
Ultimately itwill require a maturity of reasoning and understanding from which society will grow.
Even if savaged, is that any worse than our current system? -
Depends on whether you're with the majority I guess. Am not confident that 'maturity of reasoning and understanding' is common. Denigration of the Greens' drug policy, for instance :)
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Parliamentary democracy works largely because of accountability. If the government doesn't have a set of policies that work reasonably well for a majority of electors, it will lose the next election. If it's policies work, then it will probably stay in. The electorate don't need to have a view on every detail, they just have to decide whether the incumbents did a good job or whether they prefer the other lot.
Referenda, on the other hand dilute this by imposing a set of disparate and ill thought out policies.
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Paula
Party politics is at best a compromise and at worst corruption.
Your point on the Greens is exactly my issue.
It's about making the best of a bad thing. There is no good option.Rich
Dilute, I would rather wash Politians clean away.
How about a larger bureaucracy, minimum elected reps, & all votes by referendum? A true Democracy, power directly to the people. The bureaucracy would be there to inform the public on the issues to be voted on.
But true point, NZ rarely if ever has actually voted a Govt in. They're all voted out. -
Surely govt by referendum = govt by Fairfax in NZ?
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Fairfax would have you believe they are the voice of the people.
We might just find they rep the motivated minority.
Why trust people to vote for Bozo the Clown but not directly on the issues?
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3410,
How about a larger bureaucracy, minimum elected reps, & all votes by referendum? A true Democracy, power directly to the people. The bureaucracy would be there to inform the public on the issues to be voted on.
That's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.
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How about a larger bureaucracy, minimum elected reps, & all votes by referendum? A true Democracy, power directly to the people. The bureaucracy would be there to inform the public on the issues to be voted on.
and what would you have in lieu of select committees and public submissions to arrive at the final wording of a bill?
and would each refurendum consist of dozens of votes, one for each clause of a bill?
and if some clauses got a majority and some didn't, how would you fix up all the resulting holes in legislation?there are a lot of potential problems (to put it mildly) in trying to govern four million people by referendum. who decides on the questions put? who decides on the wording of the questions? your enlarged bureaucracy, perhaps? how would you prevent monied interests from manipulating the process through advertising, etc?
i put it to you that the problem with our MMP/party-based system is not the politicians but the people who vote, or don't vote, for them. we get the politicians we deserve.
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That's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.
Where as I find the idea of a full participatory democracy to be what we should be aiming for. We're a small enough country to actually manage the numbers but there are a few things which would need to be sorted out before any such system could be brought in.
We'd need to have free communication between all members of society available at any time - obviously not going to happen in our life times. We'd also need to substantially raise the average level of education in the country (to at least a degree level if not post-grab) for the citizens to be able to make actual informed decisions - yet again not going to happen in our life times.
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That's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.
Correct. This is a governance issues. Essentially we are shareholders in NZ with 1 voting share each. Every three years we get to change the board.
We really don't have the time or knowledge to deal with the minutia of the day to day job of running the country, be we do get to asses the overall performance and base our decisions on that.
Where as I find the idea of a full participatory democracy to be what we should be aiming for.
This is a different thing from referendum lead "democracy" (which, historically has been the preferred tool of dictators to lend themselves legitimacy). The easier it is for citizens to take part directly in the consultative process the stronger our democracy. I am always very impressed when the likes of David Farrar and Idiot Savant demonstrate just how easy it is to participate and get your ideas a hearing, particularly if they are well thought out and presented.
With the way technology is going I expect that process to be even more accessible and valuable in the future.
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I am always very impressed when the likes of David Farrar and Idiot Savant demonstrate just how easy it is to participate and get your ideas a hearing, particularly if they are well thought out and presented.
Indeed, Don - and if you're not going to use the participatory mechanisms that are there already (however imperfect they are), I don't have an excess of sympathy when you bitch and moan about the results. You know, like all the folks who couldn't be bothered voting at the last round of local body elections but haven't stopped bleating about the bloody useless Council since...
Don't get me wrong - bitching and whining is a precious right in a democracy. But so is voting, and being an informed and active citizen.
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Apparently Gordon Copeland has only just realised what Annette King has been saying about him and put out a press release denying it.
"I did agree to consider such a proposal - in fact I made such a proposal to Annette King - but in the end made a firm decision against it," said Mr Copeland.
Also:
"There was a simple way out of this mess and that would have been for Annette King to take the new proposal on a national road show and explain it to the tens of thousands of New Zealanders who, like me, had expressed their opposition."
Huh?
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As we know, what finally did for old B-P was not misleading the PM or the public or even Sean Plunket, but taking on the might of Audrey Young. There are some things up with which we will not put.
So John Key is in trouble on this one ...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10455127
A bit too soon to be dusting off the Cromwell quote, but still good for a giggle, as novice leader learns Media Lesson One: the tape recorder is not your friend.
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A bit too soon to be dusting off the Cromwell quote, but still good for a giggle, as novice leader learns Media Lesson One: the tape recorder is not your friend.
That's astonishing. The man's a fool. Either that or too spineless to exercise authority over his senior MPs.
I was actually quite impressed when I saw that story this morning. Not any more.
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