Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: No Red Wedding

178 Responses

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  • BenWilson, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    I have a problem funding things that extensive review has failed to find evidence for, eg acupuncture,

    I've got a problem with it, but in perspective against the ridiculous amounts of money that various other parties commit to their own little hobby horses, each of which is also not "proven" to work either, I find the Green interest in alternative medicine to be a pretty small price, something that actually has an upside potential directly relating not only to individual relief without drugs, but also has an inclusive cultural aspect utterly devoid in the commitment to giving all access to public funding directly to massive institutions.

    That's what's lost in the focusing on the imperfection of the Green Party as a potential partner. Compared to what, exactly? NZ First? Are their batshit crazy ideas somehow more tenable? Or perhaps a grand coalition with the National Party, just to keep the petrol establishment and big gambling and international utility investors in bank?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10469 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    I have a problem funding things that extensive review has failed to find evidence for, eg acupuncture, when we could be spending it on things where there is evidence, and I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

    It's not. Otoh, ACC part-funds three non-conventional therapies: osteopathy, chiropractic and acupuncture. They don't do it to be nice (hey, it's ACC), but because (they say) these treatments are "appropriate and clinically justified", ie: they seem to help injured people get back to work quicker. I think it's fair to let an accountable agency make such a decision.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22148 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones, in reply to Andrew Geddis,

    I suspect the reference was to this part of the Green’s Health policy platform:

    "Establish a Complementary Health Care Unit within the Ministry of Health to facilitate the integration of selected complementary health practices and therapies into the public health system."

    There is already a Chief Advisor with this function.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 974 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to BenWilson,

    That's what's lost in the focusing on the imperfection of the Green Party as a potential partner.

    No that's not what I was getting at. You are right, as a partner, The Green Party is a pretty reasonable choice for Labour and for Labour voters. Most of them are fine with the idiosyncrasies of The Greens.

    The problem is that the left leaning National voters can be scared away by some of those policies. Especially if as was suggested a major portfolio such as Health were to have a Green party minister. It's those voters who make the difference between another National government and a Labour/Green government.

    That's why some of the decisions about the caucus now are interesting. While it is only a rumour, it is a plausible one. Given its plausibility it is worth considering the ramifications.

    A little extra money into some er fringe medical treatments is not a huge cost and if it was always under the supervision of "standard" medical care (eg ACC authorised) may do no real harm. I personally feel given our current lack of wealth to throw at medicine it's an unacceptable cost but I'm willing to accept it.

    BUT a left leaning National voter is vastly less likely to be willing to accept it. That's a problem for both Labour and The Greens. Whether its a fair problem is irrelevant.

    Even worse it is an extremely easy issue to turn into a scare campaign, the billboards practically write themselves.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4321 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    The problem is that the left leaning National voters can be scared away by some of those policies.

    You reckon? I know people who vote more to the right, but are all about alt med. The anti-folate business was backed by both the Nats and the Greens (in Sue Kedgley's time). Frame it as health freedom rather than taxpayer's expense and it's a natural alliance.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 974 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Paul Williams,

    I don't understand David Clark's position, he struck me as very able.

    Same

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Much of that cost is a consequence of regulatory approval and complex clinical trials

    I thought most of the cost is *marketing*?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I don't agree with any of that. Worrying about the soft left vote rather than actually having an alternative position has been pretty much what Labour have done for 4.5 years now and it does nothing for them. There are votes to be won in alternative medicine too, you know, and I really doubt that left wing National voters would actually be scared away by something unscientific, considering how long they've tolerated neoliberal dogma. It's not like you go to a National stronghold and find no-one who has ever had acupuncture, or their back cracked. It's small potatoes in the voting scheme, an easy giveaway to the Greens. I don't think there's anything inherently left or right wing about it, really.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10469 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to andin,

    Shit Oh Dear! where did you people go?

    quite :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to B Jones,

    You reckon? I know people who vote more to the right, but are all about alt med. The anti-folate business was backed by both the Nats and the Greens (in Sue Kedgley’s time). Frame it as health freedom rather than taxpayer’s expense and it’s a natural alliance.

    Absolutely.

    Most notable case: National and the Greens teaming up to defeat a governing Labour Party on regulating dietary supplements in line with Australia.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22148 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to BenWilson,

    I don't think there's anything inherently left or right wing about it, really.

    does seem to be one of those things that shows up the limitations of 19th century political models, yes.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sacha,

    quite :)

    What the hell. We've been so on-topic lately. :-)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22148 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    iguana-breeding, that's what I need to know more about..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    The problem is that the left leaning National voters can be scared away by some of those policies. Especially if as was suggested a major portfolio such as Health were to have a Green party minister. It’s those voters who make the difference between another National government and a Labour/Green government.

    Does that really stack up, though? I thought Labour’s main problem last time was a whole bunch of their voters not bothering to turn out.

    And I really think the greenie-fringe-weirdo stereotype could be laid to rest. They’re by and large a lot less weird than some of the folks within National and Labour. And let's not even mention ACT, who are apparently sane enough to be in government.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3884 posts Report Reply

  • Ethan Tucker,

    Noting the demotion of Trevor Mallard, I wonder if this means there's a stronger possibility of Winston Peters being offered the Speaker's chair if a Labour/Green coalition needs his votes. Poacher turned gamekeeper.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2008 • 118 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Lilith __,

    apparently sane enough to be in government

    steady on

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Ethan Tucker,

    ratings for #nzqt would soar

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Lilith __,

    And I really think the greenie-fringe-weirdo stereotype could be laid to rest.

    Please. I'm old enough to remember when the let's-not-frighten-the-chooks argument was regularly wheeled out against Labour's nuclear free policy. In around late 1981, when a bunch of Friday night on the piss car salesmen stopped in at a lower North Shore park to beat up the occupants of a tent peace embassy, it took a certain amount of political courage to keep on believing. Three years later it had become something that the majority were proud to endorse.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4485 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams, in reply to Ethan Tucker,

    Noting the demotion of Trevor Mallard, I wonder if this means there’s a stronger possibility of Winston Peters being offered the Speaker’s chair if a Labour/Green coalition needs his votes. Poacher turned gamekeeper.

    I think it's too soon to write of Mallard. I also doubt that Winston would ever want the constraints associated the job of the Speaker. Mallard on the other hand, I personally think, would be a great Speaker.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2269 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Paul Williams,

    Yes, but :)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Paul Williams,

    I think it's too soon to write of Mallard

    always

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19362 posts Report Reply

  • Andrew Geddis, in reply to Idiot Savant,

    Though this also might be a way of sending a signal that its time for her to do so.

    What - leaving her with her portfolio and promoting her to number 4?

    That hardly screams the message "your time is up, get out of here!" Also, if Cunliffe really does think King is planning on stepping down in 2014, it's dumb to make her a central figure in what he is selling as a Government in waiting.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2007 • 199 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to BenWilson,

    I really doubt that left wing National voters would actually be scared away by something unscientific, considering how long they’ve tolerated neoliberal dogma

    Exactly.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2783 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Roberts,

    If you like the Greens overall, but a couple policies make your bile rise, then why not join up and shape the party's future?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 92 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Lilith __,

    And I really think the greenie-fringe-weirdo stereotype could be laid to rest.

    I have to laugh when duhjohnkey calls people "hippies"

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1647 posts Report Reply

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