Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Not yet standing upright

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  • Keir Leslie, in reply to James Littlewood*,

    It wasn't a facsimile! It was an altered version that took out at least one of the major components -- the black bar -- and smoothed out the hand-drawn irregularity of the koru in favour of what the alterer thought was a better design. It was an astoundingly arrogant gesture to "improve" on an artist's work and expect the Estate just to pat him on the head and say "oh yes you are better at this than Hundertwasser was, why didn't he leave that ugly unnecessary black bar out?"

    The problem for the Foundation wasn't that they didn't approve of the Hundertwasser Flag being considered, it's that -- quite rightly -- they didn't approve of a knock-off using his name.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1452 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Alfie,

    And it will ultimately be pointless to have one crowd voting for the least likely (contains traces of black) option, another faction registering their protest by defacing the form to be counted as “informal” and yet another group refusing to vote at all.

    The "no vote" and "spoil the vote" crowds both have the same outcome: the highest-ranking design will go through to the vote-off, and unless they're planning to vote seriously in favour of the status quo flag in the vote-off they'll be contributing to the success of a change they do not support.
    There's pretty much no way that the second ballot will be called off, short of a response rate "Informal" that's over half of all registered voters; Key would just say that a majority of voters have indicated support for the process. So, since we will be having that second ballot, the best course of action is to stack it in favour of the status quo by having the competitor as completely unelectable.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    The problem for the Foundation wasn’t that they didn’t approve of the Hundertwasser Flag being considered

    Agree - it was a distasteful knockoff. But why then didn't they submit his design I wonder?

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • James Littlewood*, in reply to Katharine Moody,

    as many professional design teams – each working with one of the shortlisted emblems in order to produce a short-short list

    You mean an actual design process? That's crazy talk. The kind of thing they do in places which take pride in design and innovation. Never catch on, that.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 410 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    Much as I'm happy to talk about how tasteful it was - and about the use of the name - I personally reckon if the quasi-Hunderwasser was enough like the original to be a copyright breach then ever spiral and fern offer will be hearing from every IP lawyer everywhere.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen R, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    Too bold for some narrow-minded people. For them it's a symbol of separatism.

    My issue with it was that I'd feel a bit mean stealing it off the Tino Rangatiratanga people unless someone asked nicely first, and I couldn't see them going for that if the issues around shared governance et al weren't resolved first.

    It is a really nice flag though.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2009 • 259 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to James Littlewood*,

    Never catch on, that.

    Exactly - where nepotism rules - paying professionals to do professional work is an antiquated idea.

    Do we have any idea what the panel of mates each got paid for their participation in this process?

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    I liked the triangular/maunga one as well as those above. And I agree that all of the final submissions look more like indifferently-designed corporate logos than proper flags.

    The koru design is the least offensive (although not great, as Ian points out, but too much black for a national flag. Some black is fine.

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 701 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    I think Hypnoflag is the only way to effectively either object to the process, or support keeping the original.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac, in reply to Stephen R,

    Yeah, I like the Tino Rangatiratanga flag, but I think it'd be odd to use it without a lot of consultation, since we don't have what it was intended to represent.

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 701 posts Report Reply

  • James Littlewood*, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    It wasn’t a facsimile!

    Oh, yes. You're right, it's completely foul. Confess I didn't pay it much attention.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 410 posts Report Reply

  • Dave Patrick, in reply to Stephen R,

    My issue with it was that I’d feel a bit mean stealing it off the Tino Rangatiratanga people unless someone asked nicely first, and I couldn’t see them going for that if the issues around shared governance et al weren’t resolved first.

    It is a really nice flag though.

    This.

    bleak clipart

    And this.

    This was my favourite from the long list, but even then the koru is on the wrong side to hang nicely on a flagpole - you would have thought that woudl be one of the prerequisites to think about when designing a flag.....

    I honestly thought at the beginning of this process that we might get an evocative representation of who we are and where we are as a new flag, but the process has just made me more disillusioned as it went on.

    The whole thing seems to have been set up to fail – overt support for one option from John Key from day one, a huge expense to turn more people off, a panel of “distinguished” New Zealanders, half of whom I hadn’t heard of, the long list being a selection of variations on two or three themes, and then the blandest of the bland being chosen as the final four. Shit.

    Rangiora, Te Wai Pounamu • Since Nov 2006 • 261 posts Report Reply

  • Raymond A Francis,

    Well I don't like the old flag, mostly on the grounds bugger all people can distinguish it from the Australian plus having someone else's flag on it is so colonial
    I wonder how much anti change is "because the time is not right" which is really shorthand for, the Left could do it better (maybe)
    There is no way everybody will like the new design but as long as it is distinctive what else matters
    I might note that when I travel I wear a silver fern because it is recognised as being from here, it so does help to be not confused as a Brit while asking for a favour in France

    45' South • Since Nov 2006 • 576 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to Katharine Moody,

    Do we have any idea what the panel of mates each got paid for their participation in this process?

    Too much.

    The National Party said members would receive $640 per day and the chairperson would receive $850 per day, in keeping with the Cabinet Fees Framework.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1388 posts Report Reply

  • Amanda Wreckonwith,

    So are we going with Hypnoflag or Monkeybutt?
    Someone make a decision - or do we need a panel of worthies to decide?

    Since Sep 2012 • 171 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie, in reply to Katharine Moody,

    The Hundertwasser was proposed (https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/6175) it just wasn't chosen for the Long List.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1452 posts Report Reply

  • Amanda Wreckonwith, in reply to Alfie,

    This morning on Nat Radio I thought I heard someone from 'the panel' (not Mora's) state that they had had input from 'a million' people. Seemed a bit optimistic to me - maybe they earned their dosh after all...

    Since Sep 2012 • 171 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    I notice hypnoflag has not got its whikipedia page yet. Anyone know how to sort that out?

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to Alfie,

    Sheesh - I hate it when my cynical perspective is on the money.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Amanda Wreckonwith,

    This morning on Nat Radio I thought I heard someone from 'the panel' (not Mora's) state that they had had input from 'a million' people. Seemed a bit optimistic to me - maybe they earned their dosh after all...

    I think they're counting everyone who ever mentioned it on social media.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22756 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to steven crawford,

    Great idea that. PS - cute cat mascot pic in the Twitter feed.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • Ben Chapman, in reply to Katharine Moody,

    The problem for the Foundation wasn’t that they didn’t approve of the Hundertwasser Flag being considered

    Agree – it was a distasteful knockoff. But why then didn’t they submit his design I wonder?

    The Hundertwasser Koru Flag is beautiful. It really is a work of art.

    The original Koru Flag was submitted by someone. It is not clear that this is the copyright holder though.

    Interestingly, Hundertwasser intended it to be a secondary flag.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2008 • 135 posts Report Reply

  • James W,

    As a professional designer who wanted a flag change, I find the final four are exactly how I expect a crowdsourced competition judged by non-professionals to look: bloody awful. I will likely be voting to keep the current flag now, in the hopes of another (properly run) go down the line.

    (And I picked what I call the NBA flag – the Lockwood red and blue – would be the favourite before the call for submissions. It appeals to people who like the current flag but want something a bit more 'Kiwi'. It's perfect design-by-committee.)

    Since Jul 2008 • 136 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to Ben Chapman,

    The original Koru Flag was submitted by someone. It is not clear that this is the copyright holder though.

    But given it remained in the competition (whereas the other was removed for copyright breach) I would assume the Foundation did not object. Shocking really that the Panel chose to ignore it but pick a breach of copyright when selecting that top 40. Very suspect.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to James W,

    It’s perfect design-by-committee.

    an oldie but a goodie...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7892 posts Report Reply

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