Hard News: Swine flu, terror and Susan Boyle
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Dyan:
My third son was born at 37 weeks and he needed no extra care except for waiting for a few days for his jaundice to subside through feedings. 38 weeks is really not premature.Anecdotal evidence is meaningless: this isn't just a saying in science, it's a statement of fact. So you had a premature baby who was lucky enough to be well developed. This is not relevant to the discussion we are having. My dad survied 2 plane crashes, smoked for more than 70 of his 86 years and recently survived typhoid. This in no way means that plane crashes, smoking or typhoid are in any way safe - it just means that statistically speaking he is one lucky guy.
Abortion is absolutely fine from a medical, moral and ethical point of view. And in most countries it is also fine from a legal point of view. The intrusion of superstition and/or religion into those medical, moral, ethical and legal spheres is deeply offensive to those of us who do not find superstition or religion relevant. I don't think the catholics have any more moral relevance than devotees of voodoo or wicca. It's fine with me if raelians are waiting to be raptured to outer space. But where these people start demanding to have their personal beliefs considered relevant in a medical, legal or ethical context in a way that affects other people and their freedom, I am deeply offended.
For practical or ceremonial purposes, yes, I would respect the idea that a burial ground be left intact, or a taniwha not be disturbed, if there is somewhere or some way other that can be found. But the point at which these beliefs and the people who hold them try to dictate what happens in terms of other people's physical health, then of course they are going to be dismissed as irrelevant, This is why abortion is legal and available, and why creationism is not taught along with evolution.
I will comment back to B Jones though.
What if instead of abortion we swapped it for infanticide?Why would we do that? An infant can survive without the use of another person's body, a foetus can't.
If the infant in question needs their father's kidney, liver or bone marrow to survive they have no legal or moral right to demand that biological father hand over the use of his body to an infant. I would be horrified to see anyone's rights extend to the use of another individual's body, against the donors wishes.
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so, like, if you're invited down to the world's flashest new frozen embryo bank, and yr peepers alight on a a particularly gleamsome little pencil-point of a thing, and yr guide sez, oh those, well those are just ostriches, and you ask, how do you know that, and, what knowledge do u have that diffrentiated these little f**kers from those that are plainly pencilled-in as human, what's going on here? Is it just that we know where they came from, or is there something there that is fuckin' precious? Hey, sometimes the gradeschool approach to wishing to be present not only at the scene of conception, but present at the possibility of conceiving a scene at all, is the best way to pro-seed!
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Even lives conceived via rape are precious. Killing the unborn because of the actions of their father is wrong.
I don't even agree with the death penalty for criminals, how could I justify killing an innocent unborn baby even in such difficult circumstances?
See - you applying that to women who don't share your faith-based belief in when life commences is why some of us would like to see religion retreating from our institutions. Which, thankfully, in this country it has, to a large degree.
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Is anyone else finding sachae's rhetorical style a little... familiar?
I was going to say that sachae seemed like a slightly more coherent version of little p. But now that I've seen a couple more posts, I think I see the pattern: he/she starts out more or less coherent and with a point, and then gets stoned.
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ah, fug ye, i aint stoned, ya dumnmy, i just got a whole lot to unpack
& please don't stone me unduly with yr rock-hard pointey stoney stuff.please!
Coherence is a similar value to competence, in which membas of a certain community see that u can do something...
the topics here wld seem, potentially at least, to be pretty damn hugewhy prematurely shove them into a compeutent?
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I see no moral difference between a 6 month old baby and an unborn baby.
See - you applying that to women who don't share your faith-based belief in when life commences is why some of us would like to see religion retreating from our institutions.
It's not a faith based belief actually. I was pro-life when I was an atheist. In fact when I became sexually active as a young teenager I told my then boyfriend not to proceed with sex if he wasn't prepared to deal with the fact that I would not have an abortion if I fell pregnant. I just happened to join a faith that agreed with my already formed opinion.
Granted you don't see an unborn baby as a human person, but I truely do. Just because I can choose not to kill my own children doesn't mean I can sit happily by while other women kill theirs.
Just as I would pray and vote against any death penalty, so I do the same with abortion. I sincerely believe that forcing a woman to be pregnant is less terrible than killing her unborn child.
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the most boring thing about kiwis that i know of is that when they hear something they don't expect to hear or read they go 'P! or WHAT's he ON?"which iis really a lot like putting the horse before the cart and forgetting that in the cart is where all the groovy shit is being shifted
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Just as I would pray and vote against any death penalty, so I do the same with abortion. I sincerely believe that forcing a woman to be pregnant is less terrible than killing her unborn child.
Fine, although I would argue that if you became a Catholic you weren't probably that much of an atheist to begin with. But hey, same unwillingness to terminate pregnancies in this family, you know, most people are in fact against abortion. However, to be against the choice of others you really need to be religious, it's a reality-based observation.
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weren't that much of an Atheist to begin with you say?
meanest thou here by this
that you didnae hate the Church with sufficient passion
or whut? -
I used to be able to understand most of what lil p said on here. Some of it was unintentionally amusing.
But I'm struggling with his semi-gangsta side-kick.
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dein Kampf ist ganz wichtig, ich sage, ganz wichtig!
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My dad survied 2 plane crashes, smoked for more than 70 of his 86 years and recently survived typhoid. This in no way means that plane crashes, smoking or typhoid are in any way safe - it just means that statistically speaking he is one lucky guy.
Or unlucky, in the sense that he was in two plane crashes. How unlikely is that!?
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Fine, although I would argue that if you became a Catholic you weren't probably that much of an atheist to begin with.
I was pretty un-Catholic in my teens and early twenties I assure you. It would be more fair to say I had a high degree of softness when it came to babies.
I think it's really to do with my nature more than anything. I remember at one 48hour party getting very angry with a drunk skinhead who was being mean to his puppy. Or a few years ago when I stopped a fight in town between a couple of drunk guys (note to very small guy, don't piss off the 6 foot plus Russian by calling him a f&*$ing European). Thankfully I spoke a tiny amount of Russian and could make him back off by asking what his babushka would have thought.
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Realistically none of you need me to answer questions about the Church, you are all capable of finding out for example, the interfaith diplomatic efforts of the Holy See. Likewise you can all google for the Catechism and other documents to discover the theology of the Church.
As it happens, some of us are better informed about these things than you appear to have considered. Because someone doesn't happen to believe as you do, it doesn't automatically follow that they're living in ignorance. While you probably don't intend to be patronising, it does rather come across that way.
I think it's really to do with my nature more than anything.
Good on you. Vive la différence.
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My dad survied 2 plane crashes, smoked for more than 70 of his 86 years and recently survived typhoid. This in no way means that plane crashes, smoking or typhoid are in any way safe - it just means that statistically speaking he is one lucky guy.
Or unlucky, in the sense that he was in two plane crashes. How unlikely is that!?
During WWII as an RCAF navigator it was pretty bloody likely, actually. The first crash was in Lachine (Canada) during training, and no one was hurt - though the plane crashed in freezing cold woods miles from anything - they lost their wings crashing through trees, and my dad drew the straw to stay with the wreckage while the other men walked out to get help. The worst part of that night was freezing despite the flight suit and sheepskin jacket, boots and electric socks.
The second crash was in Fulford, England and they crashed with full fuel tanks and a full payload of bombs - and all survived, all were injured. My dad was burned, but again lucky - only on the chin, neck and chest, 2nd degree in the worst parts, 1st degree for the most. He was in hospital 3 months and the techniques of the great Archie McIndoe (from Dunedin!) were responsible for restoring his skin - he had only the faintest scars on his neck, where the grafts were placed. The patients called McIndoe "The Chief" and said he used to make them laugh by barking at the junior surgeons, then winking at the men as the junior surgeons scurried around looking terrified.
A woman saved his life - I forget her name - but it was an English RAF ambulance driver who pulled him out (he was the last one out just before it blew sky high) and his first words were "Please don't tell my mother". Her bravery got her a mention in dispatches. I should really remember her name, as she also won a medal for getting him out.
He still gets a disability pension for injuries, from the RCAF but not for burns - he damn near dislocated his neck (wires from the headset) scrambling though the pilot's hatch.
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& please don't stone me unduly with yr rock-hard pointey stoney stuff.
Is this a Richard Worth text?
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it's really 'to do' with your nature that you have *become* religious
it's really 'to do' with joeschmoe's nature that he has *always been"conservatively anti-religiousboth of these natures depend on and proceed from that saced subsistent centrailty according to which or not according to which i generate my mighty profane ass
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sacred & subsistent centrality
got typo fever again -
But your Church says that women (even women who don't believe) shouldn't be allowed to have that option. How do you explain/justify that?
I'd imagine the same way the Church justifies not letting people to have the option to commit murder even if they don't believe it is wrong.
The point being not that the Church is wrong in wanting to stop people doing wrong things; the point is that the Church is wrong about what's wrong. Certainly the argument that pro-life people are being given the right to live in a pro-life way is specious -- apply to the repeal of the murder laws, and the flaw becomes glaring.
Once you grant a fertilised cell is a full human being most of the rest of the anti-choice position follows on logically; but that premise is very faulty. Even if you are a pretty extreme an-it-harm-none type, once you grant the existence of another person in the abortion scenario, you have to invoke the harm-none part no?
How about pregnancy from Incest?
Mmm? Swap out pregnancy for 1 month old baby (the equivalence of the two being the Tess' point) and the flaw is obvious. (And that that the two obvs. aren't equivalent, but.)
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I think it's really to do with my nature more than anything. I remember at one 48hour party getting very angry with a drunk skinhead who was being mean to his puppy.
Because no one who has an abortion would ever care about the welfare of puppies or other vulnerable creatures?
Right.
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As it happens, some of us are better informed about these things than you appear to have considered.
It's not my fault if my mother these days only buys me books on the history of the Church.
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While you probably don't intend to be patronising, it does rather come across that way.
Sorry, I really didn't mean to be patronising.
Because no one who has an abortion would ever care about the welfare of puppies or other vulnerable creatures?
I didn't mean to imply that at all.
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i myself am 'pregnant from incest' and i have to say I'M LOVIN' IT
i am in fact but some sort of reddish vegan pattie between two enormously familiar buns; and the only lettuce that possibly relieve my plight has got the name 'emnma hart' written all over its greenest crinkles.. -
Well I think that was a failed experiment, yes?
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you're the scientist
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