Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Time to Vote

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  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to tussock,

    Though then National can just give the nod to Conservative in a seat somewhere next time and get a free 4% extra. And give Winston some prizes for another 10% on that.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    So with MMP you can candidate vote Labour while crossing your fingers behind your back and party voting National. Not many appear to do it the other way around though.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Our Country just got evidence of absolute corruption ,of uneasy collaboration ,of sleaze in it's lowest form, of squirming and lies from the incumbant and still, yes as stupid as some are ,they accepted the teapot saga ,the propaganda and the belief that the riches of the few would someday be theirs and it never happens because it's already decided whose in the patronising Club. I don't care if anyone wants to wipe National's arse but in reality that is a Party that is so below the belt, to support their shite is to support corruption. I despair and "whatever" to anyone who wants to defend that poison

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to tussock,

    The internal ideological shit-fights over direction, just apply some fucking science, do some polling, and find out what should work, eh.

    Or Plan B, actually ask some hard and honest questions about why so many incumbent Labour MPs, most of whom held their seats by considerable margins, couldn’t carry the party vote in their own patches. We’re not talking flaky swing seats but Labour heartlands like Christchurch East, Dunedin North (narrowly) and South, Port Hills, Rimutaka, Mt Albert, Mt Roskill, New Lynn, Rongotai, Wellington Central, Mana… And while I’m sure there’s some perfectly justified merry-making that Labour has held Palmerston North and picked up Napier, those electorate wins were most certainly not reflected on the other side of the ballot.

    Figuring out that kind of disconnect, let alone reversing it, is going to take a wee bit more than polling and some serious soul searching about where they're pointing and how they're going to get there. It’s not easy, fast or pleasant (as National learned the hard way after 2002) but it needs to be done because I may be a Tory but I’m also a citizen who needs a strong and effective opposition.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    So with MMP you can candidate vote Labour while crossing your fingers behind your back and party voting National

    I'm going to try do the numbers cos it don't make sense and that scares me even!

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    Stop listening to idiot trolls like me

    One of the challenges I deal with when wearing my professional hat (I do love a good hat) is that some people will say pretty much anything that'll pass in risible efforts to "win the conversation". Whether or not these people succeed depends on who's there and how closely they're listening. Sometimes people just can't be bothered with the conflict.

    The term "conventional wisdom" was coined by JK Galbraith to describe various kinds of unthinking orthodoxy, and I think that's a fair description of many right wing economic nostrums. I don't want to pretend that appeals to the middle ground don't have problems.

    Notwithstanding all that, I hope that Labour can develop a group of leaders (rather than just a single party leader) that ordinary voters feel they can trust to exercise good judgment on their behalf. Unfortunately, this sort of thing takes time to build up, and is not really amenable to the kind of media coverage politicians typically receive.

    If the broader left can contribute to that goal (eg, as I think Laila Harre and Jeanette Fitzsimons do) then great.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to WH,

    If the broader left can contribute to that goal (eg, as I think Laila Harre and Jeanette Fitzsimons do) then great.

    So would Sue Bradford, who with some justification must be feeling a touch vindicated, be part of that broader left?

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    So would Sue Bradford, who with some justification must be feeling a touch vindicated, be part of that broader left?

    Part of the broader left, yes. Consistently contributing towards Labour's goals, no (IMO).

    Why would you say she has been vindicated?

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    So with MMP you can candidate vote Labour while crossing your fingers behind your back and party voting National. Not many appear to do it the other way around though.

    I actually know a couple of right-ish folks in Auckland Central who voted for Nikki Kaye but party voted Labour on the grounds that Jacinda Adern probably needed the back up more judging from the polls. Not a bad call on the whole, as things turned out.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to WH,

    Why would you say she has been vindicated?

    Because she could claim,with some justification, to have foreseen where the MegaMana marriage was headed.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    because I may be a Tory but I’m also a citizen who needs a strong and effective opposition.

    It’ll be ok Craig. You still got crusher et el.Tell me how or why does someone vote person Labour and Party National? It doesn’t make sense? Do people believe the economy shite but revile the dirty corrupt stuff so giving a vote to labour as an expression of distaste whilst keeping the cats who are going to favour the well off, ipso facto you.? I say you because any intelligent being must know this evidence to be true yet still want these people in your life. I just don’t get the numbers

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    I actually know a couple of right-ish folks in Auckland Central who voted for Nikki Kaye but party voted Labour on the grounds that Jacinda Adern probably needed the back up more judging from the polls. Not a bad call on the whole, as things turned out.

    Sounds pretty enlightened, though given the high Labour candidate vote coupled with a high National party vote in so many electorates – including Cunliffe’s – it has to be something of an exception.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • WH, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Internet Mana's total party vote actually increased, from 24,168 to a provisional 26,539.

    I feel for Hone Harawira a bit. It must have been a tough night for him.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    it has to be something of an exception.

    Exactly, it don't make any sense.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    voted for Nikki Kaye but party voted Labour on the grounds that Jacinda Adern probably needed the back up more judging from the polls.

    Ah, so you consider pity from polls. Brilliant. Polls that noone can understand at the best of times?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to WH,

    I feel for Hone Harawira a bit. It must have been a tough night for him.

    Bradford aside, I really can't see that he's been punished for straying from the high moral ground. There are people within Labour who should have been squirming at the cheers at ACT HQ over Hone's defeat.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    So with MMP you can candidate vote Labour while crossing your fingers behind your back and party voting National. Not many appear to do it the other way around though

    Stranger things have happened. You’d imagine there’s a point where the rubber band of plausibility just snaps, but no.

    Look Joe at the end of the day Kiwis are honest hardworking people and when some foreign political types come here and try to tell us about our Government then of course there’s going to be a backlash, I want to leave New Zealand in better shape than I found it. I know the job of prime minister is not forever and I’m going to do the best I can every day to make that difference. I dare you to show me one example where I haven’t discharged my responsibility seriously, professionally and appropriately. In the end Kiwi’s are a trusting people so they should rightly trust me.

    $ir nonce

    Quite clearly the number of rich people in New Zealand has skyrocketed since the last election. But what are you going to do, break the 9 year cycle?

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • WH, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Bradford aside, I really can't see that he's been punished for straying from the high moral ground. There are people within Labour who should have been squirming at the cheers at ACT HQ over Hone's defeat

    To the extent that Harawira is seeking a fair shake for his people I have a degree of sympathy for him. Having said that, there was a certain inevitability about what happened.

    I bought a 1970's vintage left wing text on a whim the other day. The preface says that:

    This failure of many of our younger activists to understand the art of communication has been disastrous. Even the most elementary grasp of the fundamental idea that one communicates within the experience of his audience - and gives full respect to the other's values - would have ruled out [certain kinds of protest]. [...]

    As an organiser I start from where the world is, as it is, not as I would like it to be. That we accept the world as it is does not in any sense weaken our desire to change it into what we believe it should be [but it does mean] working within the system.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to mark taslov,

    Stranger things have happened in an erection.

    I was living in Sydney at the time of the Witlam dismissal in 1975. Strange days. In a poll taken in the lead up to the following election people were asked who they felt deserved to win, as well as their voting intention. A clear majority endorsed the ousted Labor Party as deserving to be returned to power, but declared they’d be voting Liberal.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    Ah, so you consider pity from polls. Ah, so you consider pity from polls. Brilliant. Polls that noone can understand at the best of times?

    No, Sofie, but if I was in Auckland Central I’d seriously consider splitting my vote in a similar way if it increased the odds of returning two women I have an enormous amount of respect for. For the record, I probably wouldn’t have because Adern is effectively top of Labour’s list at #5, as it’s highly unlikely Cunliffe, Parker, King and Grant Robertson would all lose their electorates. (We've also had the secret ballot since 1870, so I have no idea who most people voted for and why, and that's as it should be.) The return also strongly suggests a lot of Auckland Central voters might have split their votes between Ardern and the Greens -- which probably pissed off Labour HQ but helped secure Green candidate Denise Roche a second term.

    Like it or not (and you obviously don’t) vote splitting is perfectly legal and legitimate – even the ones that probably cost National Napier.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    It's not that ,I just don't understand the strategy. You Craig may have logic but the right in general and by instruction through ads and press release and many journos support are told otherwise , vote Seymour in Epsom, Dunne in Ohairau (sp ??), So it's clear instruction. "Crucial" became evident last week. Deflection has worked well for National nopolicies. They kept ramping up there view that a sideshow was interfering but still No policy. I had friends say "only interested in policy" I said "what's National got, supporter, I'm keen to know.?" They didn't know of any." It's all Labours fault." ER yeah mkay."There was sheeple everywhere ,too scared to read up. Insane in the membrane.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    The only plausible thing I can think of is given mum and dad Kiwis’ love of property investment, the CGT was either too big a pill to swallow or it wasn’t fully understood.

    Having a little income from a rental to help tide things over is (though not mentioned here) a part of the real New Zealand dream, which is great for the older generations who’ve been able to exploit others’ need for accommodation but for younger generations faced with daunting house prices, well, that’s one of the problems in New Zealand.

    Meaning it was National’s lack of policy that won them the election and actually having some kind of policy that lost it for Labour and the Greens.

    For me, one issue I grappled with this election were these promises to build new homes, when there are 1,651,542 unoccupied dwellings in New Zealand. Mightent it be better to actually settle the country.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to mark taslov,

    Sorry, posted the wrong number, what I meant was 185,448 unoccupied dwellings. Building 100,000 new houses or using that money to stimulate the provinces, I know what I’d do, it wouldn’t involve marzipan, but there might be the odd rollercoaster.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to WH,

    a 1970s’ vintage left wing text

    sounds like Saul Alinsky’s ’Rules for Radicals’
    a community organisers handbook

    the job of the organizer is to maneuver and bait the establishment so that it will publicly attack him as a ‘dangerous enemy.’” According to Alinsky, “the hysterical instant reaction of the establishment [will] not only validate [the organizer’s] credentials of competency but also ensure automatic popular invitation."

    He threatened to organise a ‘Piss-in’ at O’Hare airport one time:

    According to Alinsky, once again the threat alone was sufficient to produce results. In 'Rules for Radicals', he notes that this tactic fell under two of his rules: Rule #3: Wherever possible, go outside the experience of the enemy; and Rule #4: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.

    Allegedly Drone-Lord Obama was an adherent to these methods in his earlier incarnation as a community organiser in Chicago, and his 2008 campaign was influenced by Alinsky’s teachings…
    source: wikipedia

    [edit] unfortunately I think Key & Joyce may have read it too...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    They walk among us...
    A new morning,
    bah humbug!
    It's perhaps the crappest Christmas yet,
    I didn't get any of the presents I wanted!

    Here we go then, another 1,094 days to look forward to
    where the only hope on the horizon, is the rising sun...

    I do hope they will be carefully checking all votes, for multiples, and other irregularities, etc when they reconcile the various booth roll books into one...

    How would they know if people's easy vote cards had been misused?
    after all, all they'd have to do is lie, no biggy on top of electoral fraud.

    The Press didn't help yesterday with a page 3 retraction of voting disinformation on Friday:

    No ID required
    In Friday's Press, in the A8 story 'Remember to make your vote count' it stated you need identification to vote today. You do not. Anastasia Turnbull of the Electoral Commission said: "You do not need identification to vote in New Zealand, and never have. Taking your Easyvote card makes it quicker and easier, but you can still vote without it. You'll just need to give the issuing officer your name and address so they can find you on the roll."

    I'm thinking some lackwit out there will decide to go to a couple of booths, just as long as they fit the demographic of whomsoever they are purporting to be...
    ...it's the only explanation I can think of for Central Chchch!

    The big fear I got from the few Joe-National voters I have met lately, was the looming Capital Gains Tax Fear - Baby Boomers worried about losing out on some of their return on their parents' house, in a nutshell - better open taxation than tax by stealth in other ways, in transactions like that everything is quantifiable, Key has got back in by gesturing hypnotically at some insubstantial looking mist in the distance, smiling to the camera "she''ll be right, trust me!"
    ...that and the Status Quo fan club!

    and just before I go and burn some toast, and worry about the crows gathering on the power lines, and other omens...
    - didn't y'all think David Cunliffe looked the most relaxed you have ever seen him on camera, virtually since taking office, when he conceded with his well crafted capitulation.
    He finally looked alive...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

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