Legal Beagle: Terrorism is already illegal
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Just reading a history of WW1 in the first few months. Mindless barbarity from mostly the ( invading) German side against French and Belgian civilians.
You could be thinking it was ISIS in Iraq and not the Germany of Goethe and Brahms. While some instances were exaggerated for propaganda purposes." Kramer and Horne recorded 129 major documented atrocities in the first weeks, 101 in Belgium and 28 in France where 5146 civilians were killed in cold blood"
There were instances of civilian human shields and villagers herded onto bridges for some days to prevent artillery destroying the bridge.
War is not a nice place, but these sort of actions were condoned right up to the Kaiser. -
Mr Key said New Zealand’s national threat level had now been increased by officials from Very Low to Low, ‘’which means that where previously the threat of a terrorist attack was assessed as unlikely, it is now assessed as possible but not expected’’.
John Key launches week long intensive campaign talking up terrorist threat and promoting deployment of New Zealand forces: single handedly raises New Zealand’s national threat level from ‘very unlikely’ to ‘unlikely’.
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Sam F, in reply to
Well, given the crazy tone of your message I thought you were actually taking the piss out of the viewpoint you expressed. And I’m still not sure
Erm. I can't have been the only one who saw this in mark taslov's post on the first page, right before Natman started posting, was I?
Now ladies and gentleman without further ado, that troll we’ve all been waiting for. From the whakakaupapa hole, it is our proud privilege to present the mighty observations and arguments; Put your hands to together for the one and only wondrously amazing Natman!
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mark taslov, in reply to
It popped up within my edit window, I thought a post like that deserved some fanfare, in the interests of continuity. but no, I could only dream of producing copy like Natman’s, so I appreciate the deliberation. =)
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Sam F, in reply to
It popped up within my edit window, I thought a post like that deserved some fanfare, in the interests of continuity. but no, I could only dream of producing copy like Natman’s, so I appreciate the deliberation. =)
Wow, okay, how about that? Thought you were pre-trolling the thread to save someone else the bother - was enjoying it as an artform :)
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
pre-trolling
Fur Pre-troll is probably available as a band name...
running with that idea and
for the more literary minded
how about Firpo Troll?
as the Golden Weather is ending...;- )
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Mike O'Connell, in reply to
...and if I say went to Lebanon to fight for Hezbollah to stop ISIS infiltrating the border (as they already have done), does that make me a terrorist? Who would be the greater terror threat here say? There are so many intricacies in this nest of Middle East vipers: Shia v. Christian, Shia v, Sunni, Sunni v. Sunni, Sunni v. Kurd, v. al-Nusra Front vs. Syrian Army, etc, etc. Without referring back to the letter of the law, who defines what a terrorist organisation is? What about 'state sponsored terrorism'? Does that count? Is that also defined – or is there a neat exclusion clause for nation states?
Arguably that's what Israel has delivered against Gaza with 2,000 odd dying. What if I had been fighting for Hamas to repel Israeli 'terror' and later returned to NZ - would I be detained at the airport? If the unfortunate Guy Boyland (the Israeli Kiwi who died in that conflict had survived and returned to NZ, would he be interned as a criminal? Or given the ‘celebrity’ treatment by our mainstream journos for his stories on the front line against the Hamas terrorists? I wonder not!
And gosh, are the Russian mercenaries in eastern Ukraine also terrorists? They've labelled the Ukrainian army ‘terrorists’. What if NZ citizens originally from Fiji were to return to take up arms in Fiji to turf out Bainimarama, a leader our government would probably like to see the end of ? To me the lines are blurred about who the terrorists really are, whatever the conflict.
Robert Fisk in his Independent columns writes probably the most insightfully and clearly on the Middle East conflicts.
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mark taslov, in reply to
I was pleased David Parker brought these kinds of issues to light in the NZMSM Mike, Graeme said:
While New Zealand has not designated Islamic State (or ISIS or ISIL) as a terrorist entity, this is because it doesn’t need to.
From Wikipedia here is a selected list of designated terrorist organisations with their designating countries:
Continuity Irish Republican Army UK/ US
Irish National Liberation Army UK
Irish People’s Liberation Organisation UK
Orange Volunteers UK
Provisional Irish Republican Army UK/US
Real Irish Republican Army UK/US
Red Hand Commando UK
Red Hand Defenders UK
Ulster Defence Association UK/US
Ulster Volunteer Force UK/USOf these (some defunct), here are the relevant inclusions on the NZ police list Graeme linked to:
1.RIRA
Real IRA
RIRA Ireland
2. Continuity Irish Republican Army
Continuity IRA
CIRAKeeping that up to date would be a full time job. So basically where you say:
and if I say went to Lebanon to fight for Hezbollah
This move is as you realise, in part at least, an effort to remove our right to fight for anyone, anywhere, in any unsanctioned capacity.
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Keno, in reply to
What bellicose nonsense! So last century. Please go back to looking at /reading your war comics.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Without referring back to the letter of the law, who defines what a terrorist organisation is? What about 'state sponsored terrorism'? Does that count? Is that also defined – or is there a neat exclusion clause for nation states?
And I have something to ask 'Natman': is Anders Behring Breivik a gunman, a terrorist, or a patriot?
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
...a gunman, a terrorist, or a patriot?
I don't see 'disturbed individual' on that list?
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on yer bike...
Dutch Bikers take on IS... -
mark taslov, in reply to
These are strange days Ian, harking back to Steve's WWI post above, those bikers remind me of the legendary enthusiasm for warring a century ago:
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Without referring back to the letter of the law, who defines what a terrorist organisation is?
It would seem quite relevant to refer to the letter of the law in a discussion about terrorist laws.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
It would seem quite relevant to refer to the letter of the law
Shame we cant say the same thing to TeamKey. "Just a regular meeting"... my arse. As Phil Goff puts it, "Political spin". More lies from the Emperor.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
More lies from the Emperor.
Nevermind the fibs, look at the new threads he's wearing,
ohhh... he isn't...
<averts eyes> -
Not saying we are at the point that
this UK trial is at, yet, but this is where we could end up soon. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Nice to see the Herald bothered to mention it. -
Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Nevermind the fibs, look at the new threads he’s wearing, ohhh… he isn’t…<averts eyes>
Yes, it's rags to riches donchaknow? Gin an' juice, or Sleepy hollow, either way , it's all downhill from here.
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Shame we cant say the same thing to TeamKey. “Just a regular meeting"… my arse. As Phil Goff puts it, “Political spin”. More lies from the Emperor.
I might have found myself yelling at him on the TV last night.
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Wow, New Zealand has won the vote, got the nod, to be a member on the UN Security Council now. John Key will be wrapped, another "deal" well brokered and done. So this has come in now, and it now gives him free hand to sign up with the US and a few other "allies", to do that "bit extra", and send the SAS and so to Iraq, in order to gather "information" on targets worth hitting.
All is well, the "balance" is restored, that one between Obama's US and Key's little Niuzilliland, it is a new bond, a new alliance or cooperation, and no matter what "terrorism" there is, it will now be dealt with.
Some forget, New Zealand is as irrelevant almost as Ruanda or Uruguay, and has hardly a trump card to play, there is still the veto that China and Russia can throw in, and yes, will Key's delegate at the UN Security Council dare raise a voice against Mainland China, when the protesters in Hong Kong get told to go home and shut up, or worse?
Sorry for the bit of "over excitement" re those video links the other night, I was doing some "research", got a bit excited, then a bit "tight" and lost the oversight for a moment.
All is well in Aotearoa tonight, so let us see, have the first "terrorists" arrived, or established "breeding" or "cloning cells" here yet?
I am afraid Key is the operator operandi master, and he will bring in more changes to spy laws, and passport laws, the terrorism act, and a whole lot more. Sadly Labour are too busy running their internal "election campaign", while the rest of us, who should be represented by them are left to fend for ourselves.
We need opposition, real opposition more than ever, to stop the hollowing out of our rights and freedoms.
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mark taslov, in reply to
will Key’s delegate at the UN Security Council dare raise a voice against Mainland China, when the protesters in Hong Kong get told to go home and shut up, or worse?
That’s highly unlikely. By making themselves enemies of hardworking Hong Kong citizens, protesters have played into the Mainland’s hands.
Bamboo scaffolding four metres high was erected along one major thoroughfare, while groups of demonstrators mixed concrete to pour over the foundations of their road blocks.
Try that in a democracy like New Zealand and you’d be arrested before the cement dries, charged with willful damage and ordered to pay the costs of the clean up. Fighting for democracy and fighting to restrict your city’s transport system can be mutually exclusive pursuits.
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Marc C, in reply to
mark, "hard working" I have been in many jobs, "hard working' is what the vast majority of the slaving, desperate and disentitled workers do all over the planet every day, some up to 20 hours a dy. The label or "honour" "hard working" can be interpreted in different ways, either as an "honour" or an "insult".
but New Zealanders are in their majority, at least these days, what they call "good Germans", is it not so?
Shut up, go and do your job, fulfill your "duty", pay your taxes, stay out of trouble, in short, do not ask any "silly" or 'unwanted" questions, and "get on with it". Things need to "move", and hurdles and "trouble makers" must be "removed", that is what I remember from my rather right wing, almost fascist, racist father.
The "recipe" is the same, it seems to be working well on "good German NZers", and loyally they follow the leader, and do as they must, and are expected to, forget the rest, they are nothing but "rabble" and worse.
I am sure Sean Plunket could not word it any better, and I am sure also, the sentiment in the "majority" is such, to fully support the "fight" against "terrorism" and the "subversion" coming from "enemies within" such as Nicky Hager.
Loyal to the cause, we are, hail my trusted Kim Jong Key.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Shut up, go and do your job, fulfill your “duty”, pay your taxes, stay out of trouble, in short, do not ask any “silly” or ’unwanted” questions, and “get on with it”. Things need to “move”, and hurdles and “trouble makers” must be “removed”
The Borg
Resistence is futile! You will be assimilated!
Loyal to the cause, we are, hail my trusted Kim Jong Key.
NEVER!!
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mark taslov, in reply to
but New Zealanders are in their majority, at least these days, what they call “good Germans”, is it not so?
Sorry if I was unclear, looking specifically at Hong Kong’s protesters, as I was and which we can agree would be a more than satisfactory starting point for New Zealanders, what I’m saying is that to successfully demonstrate for the rights of all constituents, for all workers in a democracy, the less of those constituents you piss off in the process, the more support you will have.
OTT
You’d have to be either pretty spun out, indoctrinated or resolutely cocky to call
"we nailed it"
So we spent millions in taxpayer funds to join a security council, whose most notable global accomplishment in recent memory was not only its absolute collective incompetence in failing to hold permanent member countries accountable for unilaterally flouting the council’s own collective resolution.
This has proven pivotal in facilitating the development of the most revered military organisation in world history: a group so deadly that the coalition forming to combat it already contains more countries than opposed Hitler and Napolean combined.
The two members who played the most decisive role in rendering this council impotent are two of our closest allies.
Nailed it.
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Marc C, in reply to
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