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Speaker: A Disorderly Brexit

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  • John Palethorpe,

    More fallout. Hilary Benn, son of Tony, was apparently trying to engineer a Shadow Cabinet revolt.

    Corbyn sacked him. At 1:15 am: http://news.sky.com/story/1717625/corbyn-sacks-hilary-benn-over-leadership-coup

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And meanwhile, among the Tories, Anna Sourbry on Boris Johnson:

    "I don't honestly believe that he believed what he was saying to people ... I think he didn't think that they would win."

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22747 posts Report Reply

  • Soon Lee,

    There seems to be quite a bit of Buyer's Remorse going on ranging from "I didn't think my Leave vote would make a difference" to "If I'd known the benefits I'd lose with a Brexit, I wouldn't have voted Leave". It's a mess.

    The do-over petition now has over 2.7 million signatures (Given those run for six months, and this one ends November 25, this was started last month but really took off in the last 24 hours.)

    Auckland • Since Apr 2013 • 141 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    Lucky the Labour Party here didn't blame the leadership for supporters voting for a flag change by around 25 to 30% or they would have to find another leader based on the UK claims for the coup reason.

    I actually think this is more UK Labour MPs seizing a chance in an opportunistic way. let's be honest, the parliamentary Labour part hate Corbyn with a passion, his support is in the general membership and the unions.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1443 posts Report Reply

  • Kirk Serpes,

    Well the mainstream left (esp in Britain) got caught in an ideological corner. The blame for the neoliberal reforms had to fall on someone. Too many people are worse off. But obviously they didn't want to point the finger at their elitist mates which left the door open for the xenophobic right to ride in and point the finger at immigrants and brown people. It's a much simpler narrative than what the left and centre right have been trying to sell. A good lesson for centre-left parties across the world. Either take on the ideology that caused this mess or prepare to see xenophobic fascism steal your base.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Hooton,

    By not taking the European Parliament seriously, political parties and the media ensured that it didn’t really mean anything to British voters.

    But why would anyone take it seriously? It doesn't even have the power to propose legislation (which can only come from the unelected Commission). The (unelected) Council of Ministers acts as a Senate above it. Hopefully, the EU responds to this event by seriously addressing its democratic deficit. If it does not, other countries will leave. And if that includes a major continental power then the risk is a return in a few decades to the pre-1945 rivalry among states, which seriously risks leading to war.

    But you cannot blame UK citizens (or French ones or others where support for the EU is falling) for wanting out of a profoundly undemocratic institution which never less asserts huge authority over their domestic policies and has never really taken the principle of subsidiarity seriously, no matter how often the EU Commission talks about it.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 194 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Also possible to see this as a victory for Cameron, apparently.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Hooton, in reply to Soon Lee,

    There seems to be quite a bit of Buyer’s Remorse going on

    Is there? See http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-opinion-poll-reveals-majority-8283139

    Are you sure the 2.7 million weren't always for Remain (and perhaps the most passionately so)?

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 194 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Hi Matthew,

    I think I was quite careful not to put it on the voters themselves, that's just a bit lazy - although as the results came in, as an escapee from the UK, I was agog at some of the economic self-harm that would result.

    If the major parties had actually bothered to engage their voters on Europe, rather than leaving it to the Farage's and Griffins, maybe there'd be a different outcome - but the electorate goes with what it knows etc.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Hooton, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    I see this as the second best outcome. The best would have been, say, 67-33 to Remain. The worst, I think, would have been 51-49 to Remain. Basically, the UK and the EU have always had an uncomfortable relationship and at least this is a decision so that the UK can get on and forge its destiny and - hopefully - the EU can now reform itself and pursue ever-closer union with popular support among its member states. The most important thing is not to see a return of the interstate rivalries that characterised Europe for hundreds of years. Perhaps we will end up with Churchill's original concept, of a United States of Europe (excluding the UK - and I guess Switzerland). We'll see.

    Auckland • Since Aug 2007 • 194 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    In some ways you're right, but the UK forging its own destiny includes the prospect of Indy Ref 2 - with a Yes vote this time and working out how the Belfast Accords apply if freedom of movement changes on the N.I/Eire border. Gibraltar too, they'll be nervous.

    At least it won't be dull.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    It really is a poisoned chalice, the young who don't vote as much were heavily in favour of staying, the old who do vote, but are busy dieing themselves off, voted to leave.

    Whoever inherits this mess will see that 2% margin eroded with every funeral, 5 years from now it will be gone (1%/year death rate who voted roughly 2:1 gives you your 2% after ~4)

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2605 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    In some ways you’re right, but the UK forging its own destiny includes the prospect of Indy Ref 2 – with a Yes vote this time and working out how the Belfast Accords apply if freedom of movement changes on the N.I/Eire border. Gibraltar too, they’ll be nervous.

    they'll have to solve this in spades when Scotland goes (and that now looks like it will be sooner than later) - with them both in the EU that would likely have been easy, with Scotland in the EU and the nonUK not there will be a giant border .... Boris will be asking Donald if he knows any good fencing contractors ....

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2605 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank,

    The big cities voted to remain, everywhere else in England voted to leave, seems to be the simplest FPP verdict. Perception of the extent of trickle-down, I suspect.

    Too many voters alienated by Eurocrats sucking money out of them? Migrants refusing to assimilate, forming enclaves in order to launch us vs them culture wars. Trying to get away with importing barbaric practices into civilisation because they are traditional components of ethnic culture. Unsurprising that tolerance of such idiocy has ebbed, eh?

    So now the Bilderbergers have to shuffle their left & right glove puppets again. No big deal as long as mainstreamers continue to be captivated by sham democracy, and the petition of those unable to accept the verdict of democracy turning them into losers is an entertaining exhibition of clueless impotence. The masses still want bread & circuses, so showering them with some of that helicopter money the banks and corporations have been refusing to use to create jobs since the gfc could help the transition...

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    Interesting comment, Dennis - but I think you'll find your "hot button" issues don't get the reaction you expect, here. I'd like to see some evidence for your assertions about migrants, and about "Bilderbergers".

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    Brexit, pursued by a bear (market)

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2929 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    Too many voters alienated by Eurocrats sucking money out of them?

    Except that the European Union has been pumping half a billion pounds into subsidising Wales each year.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1443 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    Attachment

    Migrants refusing to assimilate, forming enclaves in order to launch us vs them culture wars.

    Wow. In one sentence you just set the terms of a culture war and externalised the blame for it.

    No one is obliged to "assimilate" to some mythical British ideal. One of Britain's historical strengths has been the vitality offered by immigrant cultures. And the image I have attached (click to enlarge) paints a rather different story as to who doesn't want to get along.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22747 posts Report Reply

  • Prudence, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Yes. That the EU is not a democratic institution is a salient point not often made.
    And that the Remain faction was finaced by the big banks makes one question what their motive for remaining is. Well it's fairly obvious.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/11/official-pro-european-union-campaign-is-part-funded-by-goldman-s/

    Lord Owen, the Eurosceptic former Labour foreign secretary, said: “The EU works in the interests of the elite - the one per cent - so it is entirely unsurprising to find that the campaign to keep us in the Union is financed by big banks like Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 15 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell,

    I wonder what the Maori people would have said 200 years ago, if they were given a choice about immigrants, and their refusal to adapt to the local culture.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to John Farrell,

    Economic migrants and refugees are not the same as a colonial power, you silly goose.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to John Palethorpe,

    Pardon? I said nothing about refugees - I was replying to Denis Frank "Migrants refusing to assimilate." Understand?

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to John Farrell,

    I do.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    from what analysis I have seen there would seem to be a geographical divide among voters. How this works I can only guess, but there have been failures all round in communication and listening, and this seems to be historic. An all too human result is bought about...

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1881 posts Report Reply

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