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Speaker: Talking past each other: Ideological silos and research

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  • David Hood, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    I’m sure hidden in this interesting catalogue is something that contradicts my claim that conservative politicians like the tax, and it’s just me who can’t find it.

    That it not what I was trying to do, because some conservative politicians like it (and some dislike it) and it is not clear if there should be a "some" or "all" in your claim. I'm not getting sucked into that argument.

    I was responding to your earlier statement, in good faith, that "Or you could give me examples of places where the sugar tax is being advocated for as part of a balanced package of measures, along with others aimed at reducing the chief cause of the problem – namely, poverty. I’d be all ears."

    Since you said you would be keen to know, I responded.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1443 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Danielle,

    Don’t get me wrong, it’s good to get the full “bitch be crazy” treatment sometimes. Just so I can be reminded of where I stand.

    That’s not what I said and I honestly don't know what to say now.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22724 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Wait, where are those examples then? Have any governments introduced the tax and used to money to, say, make fresh food and vegetables cheaper?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Yeah, once we get to the stage where you're gaslighting me for disagreeing with you, there aren't too many other places to go.

    I've been a member of this community for nearly ten years. If you really think so little of me that you assume I'm just having goes at people thanks to my irrational/emotional nature, I don't feel particularly comfortable here.

    Also: nice try, linger. ;)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Danielle,

    Yeah, once we get to the stage where you’re gaslighting me for disagreeing with you, there aren’t too many other places to go.

    I wasn't. I did worry that you'd have a go at me for the comment and tried to make light of it. I'm sorry. I'm going to watch TV with my family.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22724 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Sacha, sorry, I've deleted your comment. I don't want to read what someone is saying about me on Twitter, because it's probably hurtful. This is kind of depressing and I'm over it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22724 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Well, I was thinking in terms of it having been a standing policy of England Labour as part of a package of policies considered more progressive than the Tories. Regarding Finland, and my reading of Finnish politics is by no means expert, it was part of the basket of policies of the leftist green coalition of the time which one would describe as leftish by scandanavian standards. In other parts of Scandanavia sugar taxes seem to have been established as part of the general post war social democrat Scandinavian social safety net of social support.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1443 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Does anyone mind if I close the thread?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22724 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Fair enough. I'm disgusted.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19661 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to David Hood,

    Oh well, seeing as you're discussin' ....

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22724 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I'd be happy not to have the option of adding to things to this thread- I was just composing posts while helping out on other sites, so I was lagging in the conversation, and I don't think I can add much light to it.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1443 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    We've certainly acted out the premise. Well done, all.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19661 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    There is a pattern developing of women saying things here and men feeling oppressed and wanting to close threads that... but hey it's not my forum you all do what you like. Food for thought though maybe.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    It's a very challenging thread. And a scary one for some people to participate in, even though they have important things to say.

    I think it would be silencing to close it down permanently. Taking the evening off seems like a reasonable option, but closing it down altogether does seem, well, as though it's not permissible to have a conversation about fatness and fat people.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Not feeling 'oppressed' here, Gio. Just disgusted by passive-aggressive discussion styles.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19661 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Deborah,

    a conversation about fatness and fat people

    It interests me how a conversation about reducing the availability of sugar turned into that.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19661 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah, in reply to Sacha,

    Not feeling oppressed here. Just disgusted by passive-aggressive discussion styles.

    Sacha, this would in fact be an exemplar of passive aggression, and this type of response is exactly why many women I am in contact with don't participate here.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah, in reply to Sacha,

    It interests me how a conversation about reducing the availability of sugar turned into that.

    It was because we can't talk about obesity as some kind of abstract, out there kind of thing. Obesity is located here, in our bodies and in our very existence. When we talk about combatting obesity, we talk about combatting actual real people. And those actual real people feel very targeted and demonised and threatened.

    And as Danielle commented above, that's without even considering the particular resonances here for women, and for working class people.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Sacha,

    Not feeling ‘oppressed’ here, Gio. Just disgusted by passive-aggressive discussion styles.

    You don't want me to tell you what I thought of your throwaway post about obesity being contagious, in all honesty.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Deborah,

    I get that about obesity, yes, but the health impacts of sugar are so much broader as I've tried to contribute. 'Sugar tax' does not mean 'obesity tax'.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19661 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    There is a pattern developing of women saying things here and men feeling oppressed and wanting to close threads that… but hey it’s not my forum you all do what you like. Food for thought though maybe.

    I presume "men" refers to me – in which case you should probably have said so. I'm not feeling "oppressed", but it does start to feel a bit pointless when it gets like this.

    I'm somewhat aware that I'm being slagged on Twitter, again, but I'm trying not to look. I've tried hard with this thread and I've especially endeavoured to operate in good faith. The only time I've closed a thread in recent memory was when a discussion had gone completely toxic and abusive. It took a toll on me and I'd rather not go there again.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22724 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Not your styles. Twitter styles actually.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19661 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I presume “men” refers to me – in which case you should probably have said so.

    Not just you, no. Clearly Sacha too. The most notable of these threads was Graeme's on 'roast busters' and free speech.

    I won't comment on the 'slagging', other than to say if people feel they can't speak their mind here they will do so elsewhere.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Deborah,

    I think it would be silencing to close it down permanently. Taking the evening off seems like a reasonable option, but closing it down altogether does seem, well, as though it’s not permissible to have a conversation about fatness and fat people.

    All good. I would be grateful if it got back to being a discussion.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22724 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Deborah,

    And those actual real people feel very targeted and demonised and threatened.

    I'm fat. Yes I'm a man but I do not feel threatened, to be clear. Nor do I believe my feelings should prevent conversations about ideas and actions, in any case. The world is not a therapy session.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19661 posts Report Reply

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