Speaker: Towards a realistic drug policy
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A bit off topic here, but I am truly impressed by the Haralds' picture of drug making equipment from Victoria ave. see here
I never knew you needed so little. And when I see fans and cookers in peoples kitchens in the future well, let alone tupperware...
More material for Mike Sabin and his how to spot a P user/ P lab courses I guess.
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I'm not starry-eyed about it, but given New Zealand's very high rates of use under current policy, it's hard to see that use would increase very greatly under a different policy.
Yep, decriminalisation is worth a shot because prohibition has been a failiure. Using Amsterdam as an example, however, conjures up images of a cafe-culture utopia for potheads that I don't think is very helpful in the New Zealand context.
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Countries with less untrammelled capitalism, like several in northern Europe, have less of these problems
Testify!
Although I don't know about Northern Europe. Have you been drinking with Scandinavians? Not quite as bad as Russians, but definitely the type to squash the cap when you open the vodka bottle. Cause you won't be needing it any more.
But anyway, as I was wandering at lunchtime I was thinking along very similar lines. The desire for oblivion is a desire for relief from the pain caused by capitalism. (Obviously, on the Soviet experience, you can substitute state communism as well).
When we deregulated the licensing laws, the idea was that we would somehow adopt the marvelous drinking habits of Southern Europe, ie with food and bonhomie, and even if we would drink a lot, it would be like the French who supposedly don't binge and puke and fight all over the place but merely fall asleep decorously after dinner. Yet this didn't happen, and people have started asking whether it's a fundamental part of our Anglo-Celtic heritage or our pioneering masculine roots or something.
Perhaps it isn't Anglo-Celtic habits per se. Perhaps it's the alienating effect of capitalism and the Protestant work ethic, the consequent loosening of social bonds and the depressing knowledge that your worth is measured by your pay and your possessions. UK-style binging is spreading to the young people around the Mediterranean, I hear -- maybe the decline of the siesta and the ability to eat lunch with your Mum and the spread of multinational technocrat work culture are to blame as much as the allure of Anglophone license.
I would love to know whether anyone has looked at this seriously. If there is a connection, then we could set the health and drug policy lobbyists on to increasing human happiness by creating a more humane society as the prevention for binging.
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All mass murderers in NZ were mentally ill, and all smoked pot. I can't locate a link to it, but it stands to reason
With reasoning like that you should write for the NZ Herald.
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Cannabis isn't a benign drug and that's what irritates me about the pro-legalisation lobby - all the talk is of how it's not as harmful as alcohol. They are both harmful and we should be trying to get people to use less of both.
Can I just make a few changes to this....
Watching rugby isn't a benign drug and that's what irritates me about pro-sporting lobby - all this talk is of how it's not as harmful as watching morning television. They are both harmful and we should be trying to get people to do less of both.
Better.
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3410,
Perhaps we should push for marijuana-smoking to become compulsory and then eventually Parliament might meet us half way.
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Cannabis may be legal in California this year. If so, it will provide a model for NZ to consider when we change the law here.
That's got a big financial driver behind it. The State of California is basically broke, and the taxes on pot is one of the possible solutions to the problem.
All mass murderers in NZ were mentally ill, and all smoked pot. I can't locate a link to it, but it stands to reason with the extreme risk to mental health. This is where Norml blames the victim.
I'm not sure if repeating your unsubstantiated claim makes it any more likely to be accepted, particularly now you've admitted it came from a health professional, not an expert on... mass murderers.
(And how someone can be a mass murderer without being mentally ill, I have no idea.)
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I would love to know whether anyone has looked at this seriously. If there is a connection, then we could set the health and drug policy lobbyists on to increasing human happiness by creating a more humane society as the prevention for binging.
According to this table the Danes have one of the highest rates of alcohol consumption, but if I recall correctly they keep coming out on top in the happiness tables.
Maybe instead of binging on the weekends they keep themselves in a nice mellow alcohol haze all week.
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Danes have one of the highest rates of alcohol consumption,
Ah those long cold winter nights........
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decriminalisation is worth a shot because prohibition has been a failiure.
What do you mean by "decriminalisation'?
My understanding is that's what we've had going on in NZ for decades, BUT NOT IF YOU'RE YOUNG, MALE, OR MAORI. Based on my what I've heard from literally hundreds of people who have contacted NORML over the years, your average, white middle class Kiwi over the age of 21, when caught with a small amount of cannabis, loses their stash and gets let off with a warning - that's what I call selective decriminalisation.
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<slight.minddump>
Possibly worth considering when tallying up the possible negatives of decriminalisation/legalisation is whether more users will utilise delivery systems that do not involve burning the leaf.
Whether it is via vapor, baking, extracting into oil/butter (yum!) or one of several other methods. I would predict that both the ability to share related information more freely [and possible commercial application] would make many of the arguments around tar, second hand smoke etc far less realistic.
cannawater on the supermarket shelf? marijuagum from the bottleshop? article in viva with the best cookie recipes?
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cannawater on the supermarket shelf? marijuagum from the bottleshop? article in viva with the best cookie recipes?
I'm now envisioning an alternate-reality version of that hilarious Real Food thread we had a few months back...
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What do you mean by "decriminalisation'?
Fine. Some form of legalisation then. My problem isn't with the idea of cannabis being decriminalised. My problem is with the way in which you have presented your argument - painting a picture of cannabis as a benign drug by constantly comparing it to alcohol and tobacco.
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how someone can be a mass murderer without being mentally ill, I have no idea
- Armed political struggle (though only pacifists and those on the opposing side would consider it "murder")?
- Financially motivated crime?
- Life circumstances?
Also some psychiatrists distinguish mental illness from personality disorders.
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A good book to read on the subject is the recent "Marijuana is Safer - so why are we driving people to drink?" by Steve Fox, Paul Armentano, Mason Tvert; with an eye-opening foreword by the former Seattle Police Chief, Norm Stamper.
Auckland Public Library has a copy.
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Just a note mental health patients are at more risk of harm than of harming others.
http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/ps;59/2/153
Rich here is the conclusion from the abstract you linked.
Conclusions The historical reasons for regarding personality disorders as fundamentally different from mental illnesses are being undermined by both clinical and genetic evidence. Effective treatments for personality disorders would probably have a decisive influence on psychiatrists' attitudes. -
Adults don't have developing brains anymore, it's all downhill for us.
[citation needed?]
And then you'd have to rebut This
The whole argument about harm is spurious, life itself is fatal. I would go on to suggest that reading "Your Views" was more detrimental to brain growth. in fact most "Entertainment" could fall into the same category. Just forget Cannabis completely and bundle it up with smoking anything else, cigarettes, pipes and cigars, tax it the same way, run quit lines the same way. I mean, geez, we used to get busted for a fag behind the bike sheds, now even teachers can't do it.
You cant even have a beer on the beach in most places now, why should pot be any different ?
Why should someone loose their job over smoking one plant over another? How come Office parties are virtually encouraged to be fuelled by C2H5OH rather than C11H15NO2 ?
All these questions and more folks.
I generally reserve a big Fuck Off for those that tell me how to live my life and this is no exception. -
Steven, you can drink in the sea though. Transporting alcohol through a banned area unopened is legal. You transport it off the beach (that's up to your knees in the sea) and enjoy.
Cans or kegs please as glass breaks. -
I said *some* psychiatrists. I have no opinion on the correctness of that view, or of the law that relies on it.
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unbelievable. I just spent the last hour wring a HUGE-ass response to this thread and... I lost it. BUGGER!
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If we got rid of booze in supermarket shelves and 24-hour liquor stores, on the other hand, I doubt there would be a sudden proliferation of sly groggers and illegal stills.
I would beg to differ on that opinion, it would happen almost overnight. I, for one, would see to it.
;-)By being a particular type of psychopath.
Yes, a non mentally ill psychopath I guess.
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[citation needed?]
Umm, I thought it was relatively uncontroversial. But this PhD seems convinced:
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/healthissues/1127400726.html
Cornell and Rochester University say the same thing:
ie, 21 - 22 years old.
And then you'd have to rebut This
Well for that you should talk to a scientist. The idea that children shouldn't be given alcohol, marijuana in order to protect their brain development didn't seem controversial to me.
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unbelievable. I just spent the last hour wring a HUGE-ass response to this thread and... I lost it. BUGGER!
Well it's not legal yet webweaver. shhh ;)
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unbelievable. I just spent the last hour wring a HUGE-ass response to this thread and... I lost it. BUGGER!
Yeah, that short term memory loss is a bugger eh?
;-) -
Kyle, I think you missed my point. Harm reduction is not the driving force behind "The War On Drugs" and using it as an excuse to criminalise behaviour is not on in my book.
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