Up Front: Are We There Yet?
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Its easier to rent a house in Tawa when you have a marriage certificate.
This is illegal. You should complain to the HRC about the landlords responsible - or better yet, name and shame them as bigots.
Same-sex couples joined in formal marriage in that future state so keenly sought will still be subjected to a degree of discrimination in some quarters even if unlawful, just as it is now in respect of those joined in civil union. And there is so much baggage to the institution of marriage that there are plenty wanting to abolish it (but that won't happen, while it's optional not compulsory, and valued by many, doesn't even need a majority).
So I ask, what is it about "marriage" that the opportunity to partake of it by same-sex couples is so keenly sought, when civil union provides all the substance? or is it only 95% of the substance? Is there an extra aura to "marriage" as well as the legal substance expressed also in civil unions?
If those who want it can articulate the answer, and then appreciate and defuse the counterpoint that to many centrist people of goodwill "marriage" has a two-sexed essence, meanwhile sidelining not mainstreaming the bigots - well I reckon that way lies progress.
No sweat :-)
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Chris, I can't think of anything to answer your 'You've got civil unions, what are you whining about' that hasn't already been articulated on this thread several times over. I'm starting to get a bit dizzy with the circling.
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I'm a bit confused bby the double-assertion that
- Everyone should be able to marry
- Marriage as we know it should be abolishedIsn't that a bit like saying
- Everyone can have a pony
- Ponies are all to be put to death
?I am married and I can see no reason why same-sex marriage should be proscribed. As I stated earlier, I've known plenty of gays who would make a much better fist of marriage than some of the hetero couples that vociferously insist that gay marriage is beyond the pale.
But what is the basis for "Marriage as we know it should be abolished"?
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It's easier to rent a house in Tawa when you have a marriage certificate.
Somehow, I find it hard to see that as an advantage.
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Isn't that a bit like saying
- Everyone can have a pony
- Ponies are all to be put to deathStewart, I think Russell was briefly summing up two different lines of argument that have gone through the thread. For some people, they'd ideally like ponies put to death, accept that isn't going to happen, and so advocate for the fair and equal distribution of ponies instead.
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I've known plenty of gays who would make a much better fist of marriage
Must....exercise....restraint....
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Emma, thanks for clearing up my stupid confusion (although having followed the thread quite closely there does seem to be some support for both opinions at the same time from some posters).
And yes, Michael, I did think of appending a note about "No sniggering at the back there about the juxtaposition of 'gays' and 'fist'" but I tend to think my mind is the only really deviant one here (apart from Craig & Emma* et al)
* Including but not limited to...
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I did think of appending a note about "No sniggering at the back there about the juxtaposition of 'gays' and 'fist'" but I tend to think my mind is the only really deviant one here
Normal people don't do that kind of crap and so don't know of the other meanings.
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And yes, Michael, I did think of appending a note about "No sniggering at the back there about the juxtaposition of 'gays' and 'fist'" but I tend to think my mind is the only really deviant one here (apart from Craig & Emma* et al)
* Including but not limited to...
Hey! Some of us are just as deviant as those two fine examples y'know...we're just less articulate and verbose about it ;).
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Must....exercise....restraint....
Just pop on over to the other thread. And how DO you feel about spatulas?
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Must....exercise....restraint....
Just pop on over to the other thread. And how DO you feel about spatulas?
Dammit, didn't get here in time to make that joke first.
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Which era ? Octopussy, Thunderball ?
Zardoz, of course.
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We carried a copy of our marriage certificate when we travelled and the YHA in the UK still wouldn't let us share a bunk room.
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I've known plenty of gays who would make a much better fist of marriage than some of the hetero couples that vociferously insist that gay marriage is beyond the pale.
Don't tell Orson Scott Card, who took the "teh gayz will demean my real marriage" line to a whole new level of bat-shitty weirdness a few months back.
Money quote:
Why should married people feel the slightest loyalty to a government or society that are conspiring to encourage reproductive and/or marital dysfunction in their children?
Why should married people tolerate the interference of such a government or society in their family life?
If America becomes a place where our children are taken from us by law and forced to attend schools where they are taught that cohabitation is as good as marriage, that motherhood doesn't require a husband or father, and that homosexuality is as valid a choice as heterosexuality for their future lives, then why in the world should married people continue to accept the authority of such a government?
What these dictator-judges do not seem to understand is that their authority extends only as far as people choose to obey them.
How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn.
Biological imperatives trump laws. American government cannot fight against marriage and hope to endure. If the Constitution is defined in such a way as to destroy the privileged position of marriage, it is that insane Constitution, not marriage, that will die.
Why, Mr Card, should I tolerate the threat of an armed tantrum when you don't get your own way? And why shouldn't I be very afraid that you've precisely no respect for the lives and property of those who don't live their lives according to your (with all due disrespect) deeply weird cult?
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That last episode of Boston Legal summed up why two consenting adults should get married. You get to be 'next-of-kin' with no arguements and all that entails legally.
We invent this contract called a Civil Union which apparently gives couples the same legal rights as a 'married' couples. Stinks of equal but different to me. One rite to rule them all I say.
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Don't tell Orson Scott Card, who took the "teh gayz will demean my real marriage" line to a whole new level of bat-shitty weirdness a few months back.
What was that? Couldn't hear you over the crickly-crackly sound of my copy of Ender's Game burning over the open fire.
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And here was me wondering whether to reread the Homecoming series... I did recently enjoy Card's book on writing science fiction, which I think dated from a distant, saner era.
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What was that? Couldn't hear you over the crickly-crackly sound of my copy of Ender's Game burning over the open fire.
I'm experiencing momentary frustration that there isn't any Card in the house, because I do have fire. Nice to know his hatred of 'dictator-judges' is so strong he's happy to live in a military dictatorship.
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sn't she also saying the state should not formally recognise any marriage, just as TracyMac did?
I'm not sure what Tracy Mac said, but I can reiterate my position.
There are different definitions of marriage around. In New Zealand's past the State and many people assumed marriage about being a man and woman making a lifelong commitment to be together and produce children. That situation has now changed.
All couples need legal protections and access to things like being the next of kin if your partner goes into hospital.
I think that "marriage" is how the couple defines it within their own cultural context. Marriage isn't something the State should define for everyone. However it is the State's job to confer legal protection onto couples (or more) who choose to share their lives together.
Therefore the State should register people's civil unions and de facto partnerships and make "marriage" something that people define for themselves.
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Re: fist...
I went with my mother to a Robert Mapplethorp exibition once. Certainly made for an interesting mother and daughter time.
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Therefore the State should register people's civil unions and de facto partnerships and make "marriage" something that people define for themselves.
I think that's not a million miles from what TracyMac was advocating.
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I'm experiencing momentary frustration that there isn't any Card in the house, because I do have fire.
I think we should separate the art from the artist, otherwise I couldn't read "Growth of the Soil" by Knut Hamsun who supported Nazi Germany and Hitler during the war.
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One rite to rule them all I say.
Nice.
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I think we should separate the art from the artist, otherwise I couldn't read "Growth of the Soil" by Knut Hamsun who supported Nazi Germany and Hitler during the war.
I'd mostly agree with you there -- I can value T.S. Eliot's poetry and criticism while neither buying into nor getting into denial mode about his anti-semitism. But when Scott Card has turned his work into ever more thinly veiled (and unreadable) Mormon polemics-slash-right-wing political tracts, I don't think I'm the one who has busted that distinction where he is concerned.
And when Card is on the board of the National Organisation for Marriage -- which doesn't seem to be an organisation for truth in advertising -- well, bugger it. I'm not going to put a penny in his pocket.
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I'm not going to put a penny in [Scott's] pocket.
Does buying his books second hand count?
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