Up Front: Are We There Yet?
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But what Tess is advocating isn't that sort of "conscientious objection" - it's simple bigotry and hatred.
'Fraid so. And employing specious 'separate but different' arguments is creepily reminiscent of the justification for apartheid.
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There's a reason why I'm uncomfortable with religious groups running social services....
I'm in and out of this conversation, but I hope we'll all acknowledge that many church groups do fantastic charitable work (as do many lay-groups). It's also worth noting that the NZ Council of Christian Social Services, the peak body for church service providers, is also a particularly effective lobby group and has been for a long time.
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'Fraid so. And employing specious 'separate but different' arguments is creepily reminiscent of the justification for apartheid.
The one I find creepy is the 'but they genuinely believe it' justification. I don't see how anyone could be bigoted and NOT genuinely believe it.
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I hope we'll all acknowledge that many church groups do fantastic charitable work (as do many lay-groups). It's also worth noting that the NZ Council of Christian Social Services, the peak body for church service providers, is also a particularly effective lobby group and has been for a long time.
That's true. While I don't know that it's an ideal situation, church groups are an integral part of the delivery of social welfare. Presbyterian Social Services, for example, rival the much higher-profile Salvation Army in the scale of their operations. In some cases, such as the Baptist City Missions' submission on the effect of loan sharks on lower income groups around three years back, they've shown themselves to have a more proactive social conscience than the government of the day.
It's when they attempt to impose conditions beyond Christian charity, and extend their power under the guise of 'morality', that they overstep the mark. The threats and attempted bullying of politicians employed by Sydney's grotesquely reactionary Cardinal George Pell show that there are elements in the Catholic Church that still nurture a longing for an authoritarian past.
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Sure - but those sorts of limits are things along the lines of participation in genocide, gross human rights abuses or murder. But what Tess is advocating isn't that sort of "conscientious objection" - it's simple bigotry and hatred.
I believe that abortion is murder though given it causes the death of a human being.
And no, I am not getting into a debate about abortion.
As to the labels "bigotry" and "hatred", I think you are using this to redact my point. By using these words you are reducing my argument to the equivalent of the bogie-man. Rather than thoughtfully engaging in dialogue, you brush aside any thoughtful disagreement by attaching a label.
I'm not offended or distressed by people who have sex with people of their own gender. I don't find it disgusting or icky. I certainly don't feel hatred for anyone, or hatred for anyone's lifestyles, provided everyone is an adult and it's consensual.
I'm opposed to any private, consensual, adult sexual act being made illegal. I want couples to have legal protection. If more than two people feel they need that, then that's fine too. I support all people following their conscience, and them having freedom of belief, or non belief as they see fit.
Yet because I endorse a different definition of marriage, one that is intertwined with conception of a new human life, I am to be placed into the box labelled "hater/bigot".
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Anyone for tenets...?
I wanted to make a pun re tenants/tenets but it was beyond me. I was hoping Ian Dalziel would turn up and do it for me. :)
Danielle - far be it from me to ignore a call for help from a damsel in distress, or lost for words... ;- )
Careful with that axiom Eugene...
I believe the Irish Church (amongst others) have had a strong historical grasp on the tenants of faith, for which they are still apologising, and paying ...
Witness the habitual damage done to canon fodder by a lack of principles (but not principals) on the premises...
Spiritual squatters in dogma collars
- a Resident Evil indeed...yrs
Friar Tuck
(nee Spooner) -
Yet because I endorse a different definition of marriage, one that is intertwined with conception of a new human life, I am to be placed into the box labelled "hater/bigot".
You are free to think that abortion is wrong or that marriage should just be between a man and a woman. You're just not allowed to impose those beliefs as social norms outside of your church. Catholics are against gay people being married by the State, in case that has escaped your attention.
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Fair points Joe. Just thought it worth noting that some church folk do great things beyond just worrying for others' immortal souls.
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Careful with that axiom Eugene...
I'm going to have to find a way to marry Ian without prejudice to my civil union with Justine.
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You're just not allowed to impose those beliefs as social norms outside of your church.
I am allowed to engage in the political process though. I'm allowed to vote for who I like, I'm allowed to publically lobby for what I believe. And so is everyone else.
You don't get to impose your views either. You too have to use the democratic process. People of faith are not going to go quietly away. And the harsher the laguage, the more it radicalises people.
In the Gallup Coexist Index 2009: A Global Study of Interfaith Relations, 0% of British Muslims thought that homosexual acts was morally acceptable. French Muslims were the most permissive about homosexual acts, but still, only 35% of them regarded it as morally acceptable.
http://www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/118249/Gallup-Coexist-Index-2009.aspx
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How annoying this work thing is turning out to be, it takes one away from life - life being PAS, of course. But fortunately, in my absence several people have made points that just make me want to kiss them.
Due to my strongly held and discriminatory beliefs, Emma and Danielle go to the front of the kisses queue.
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...and my ex-girlfriend is Muslim. As an alcohol-drinking lesbian she's perhaps not the most orthodox (or whatever the Muslim equivalent is) of Muslims, but she's far from the only one in her country. In fact, it was pretty much lesbian heaven there. And I'm going back the second I can!
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People of faith are not going to go quietly away.
Why do you think I'm such a strong advocate of pikes?
In the Gallup Coexist Index 2009: A Global Study of Interfaith Relations, 0% of British Muslims thought that homosexual acts was morally acceptable. French Muslims were the most permissive about homosexual acts, but still, only 35% of them regarded it as morally acceptable.
It could 99% and it would still not matter - they still wouldn't have a right to impose their views on the rest of society. Even if, say, an absolute majority of the people of New Zealand believed homosexuality were immoral, it would still be wrong for them to legislate against a minority. Otherwise, hey, all non Catholics could band together and decide that form now on only Catholics pay
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Mrs Skin, out of interest did she eat pork?
I find dietry laws really interesting, especially when they become effectively cultural rather than specifically religious.
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Otherwise, hey, all non Catholics could band together and decide that form now on only Catholics pay
taxes.Well technically you could do exactly that, although I think it would be highly unlikely to ever happen. Traditionally Islam taxed non-Muslims the jizya, so it is not impossible to have a similar thing happening in the future by some dominant ideology or faith.
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Well technically you could do exactly that, although I think it would be highly unlikely to ever happen.
The point is not how unlikely or unlikely it is, but that it wouldn't be just, it would be a form of discrimination. Are you able to see that?
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Tess - no, she didn't, in fact that was the one thing she was really strict about. She was, however, willing to overlook the point that food she was eating might have been prepared alongside pork or in pans used in cooking it.
I say 'overlook' but really I mean a sort of 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. If it were raised as a possibility during dinner I imagine she'd refuse to eat the food, but as long as no-one mentioned the war... Amusingly, this attitude reminded me of my Catholic friends - particularly those from Christchurch.
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I think all individuals should be taxed equally, and yes, taxation based on group identity is unjust. Likewise I think that making any sexual acts performed by consenting unrelated adults illegal is also wrong. Although to be fair there should be rules around patient-doctor etc. sexual activity because of the possible abuse of power etc. But I digress.
I'm not wanting to impose my beliefs on _any_ form of private sexual behavior, provided as I said consensual and adult.
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Mrs Skin: That's really interesting. Was it a religious thing, or more of a cultural, pork is icky, thing, do you think?
How did it remind of of your Catholic friends?
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I'm off to watch a dvd, I actually started typing video. It's the perks of being sick, all day discussing on the net and then watching movies. Really though I should have been in bed getting sleep. Ahh well.
Good night all.
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She would say religious, I would say that her adherence to religion was cultural rather than personal so I'd see it ultimately as a cultural thing. But I wouldn't say it to her face - well not if I wanted to avoid sleeping on the couch.
My Catholic friends (more accurately: friends who were raised Catholic) all have that 'don't ask, don't tell' thing going on with regard to stuff they know they're not meant to be doing.
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more accurately: friends who were raised Catholic
Lapsed Catholics are the best . I know that sounds terrible, it's just that a couple of my closest friends come from Catholic families. In fact, they're my son's 'god-parents'. In that, if I ever want someone to tell my son about God, it should be Oliver. They can cover whisky-mixing and cigarette-rolling at the same time.
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I hope we'll all acknowledge that many church groups do fantastic charitable work (as do many lay-groups).
I won't deny that sterling work is done by religious charities and it's not like I'd advocate getting rid of them all next week BUT there's always the potential for those charities of advance agendas that have very little to do with helping the needy undercover of their charitable works
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...Muslims, but she's far from the only one in her country. In fact, it was pretty much lesbian heaven there.
Turkey?
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Singapore. Now there's a place to go if you want your rights trampled on. Or if you want all the lesbians you can carry.
steven: I have a theory that they're having way more fun than the rest of us because everything they do is naughty. And naughty stuff is super fun.
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