Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: They Have the Best Rides

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  • Grant Dexter,

    Obliged for the response, Craig.

    I disagree (naturally :). I would do everything in my power to make sure she did not go through with her plan and I would cut her off if she did.

    Anybody else?

    Taipei, Taiwan • Since Mar 2007 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I would cut her off if she did.

    God god.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    can I make that good god, but then, thinking about it, either way works as Grant seems estranged from his.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Peter Darlington,

    I disagree (naturally :). I would do everything in my power to make sure she did not go through with her plan and I would cut her off if she did.

    But surely in your case that's a reason for your daughter to become a prostitute?

    C'mon Grant, you're really not thinking this through.

    Nelson • Since Nov 2006 • 949 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And I'm not keen on having the oddities of Grant's bronze-age philosophy become the theme of yet another thread, so yes, I'll keep an eye on it.

    Also, I now realise that Emma and Hadyn didn't get moderator privileges, which is a bit of an oversight. I'll have that fixed.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    but let's not let this thread be hijacked by Grant's bullshit, okay? Let him troll anywhere on PA but here, it would be a real shame. So not taking the bait, please.

    Mr Ranapia, you'll notice that many of us had agreed informally to Giovanni's suggestion, so please don't come back and prod the troll. Still trying to find some time to get my own thoughts together but don't want to have to wade through shit to do so.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    I can think of more repugnant jobs than the "adult sex industry".What about all the investment vehicles eg.Blue Chip?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    What about all the investment vehicles eg.Blue Chip?

    You can certainly screw a much greater number of people that way, it would appear, yes.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings,

    "You're my child, and I love you ESPECIALLY when I vehemently disapprove of your choises. And if things turn to shit, you know where I am and, no matter how pissed off you make me, my door's always open."

    This is a wonderful response and I'd like to think I'd say something very similar were it my child.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 719 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Still distracted by work, but found this offering from Wendyl Nissen that touches on both my immediate plight and the discussion here:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/466/story.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10528653

    "Think of England," she replied helpfully.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    This is a wonderful response and I'd like to think I'd say something very similar were it my child.

    Yes, imagine a world without unconditional love as the alternative. Shudder.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    Yes, imagine a world without unconditional love as the alternative. Shudder.

    And hmmm... isn't that the world in which the vast majority of sex workers (male, female, adult, child) find themselves? I mean, if we define unconditional love as "I will feed and house you if you find yourself short of cash or out of luck"? Because it's a fair bet that most people in the industry -- barring the occasional self-actualizing Ren type person (see also Tristan Taormino, Annie Sprinkle, Candida Royalle, Buck Angel, and many more) -- are doing it to pay the rent and groceries, not to top up an already adequate living obtained somehow else, or to, y'know, express themselves (cue Madonna, "C'mon girls...").

    [Which is pretty much the conclusion Wendyl Nissen comes to in that excellent column - she can't pay the bills by only doing it with/for/to nice guys. Only the luckiest of us can, whatever the work.]

    It's not news that for the overwhelming majority, sex work is a "choice" like working at WalMart with no health insurance and no union protections is a "choice" -- except with vastly crappier working conditions.

    So, but, and, maybe there's a connection between writing about it and feeling a little bit sovereign over it? Y'know - like, if you can retool and recount your experiences for the Village Voice and eager grad students and a world wide readership, and thereby earn some cash and some respect, you're doing a different kind of sex work, one that does provide you with a more reliable sense of agency? (Cf. the occasional book about finding oneself while working in Starbucks, or on a building site, or wiping bums in a hospital, or some other gritty, underpaid, under-respected job -- the unlikeliness factor is crucial to the genre, as is the exceptionalism).

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1472 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    Here's the other thing I can't figure out. If there's so many eager beavers (as it were) willing to pay good money for even half-assed (as it were) encounters... why on earth are any of us doing it for free -- and with the same old same old partners, no less -- instead of giving up our day jobs and hitting the streets? What are we, crazy? </rhetorical question>

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1472 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    So, but, and, maybe there's a connection between writing about it and feeling a little bit sovereign over it? Y'know - like, if you can retool and recount your experiences for the Village Voice and eager grad students and a world wide readership, and thereby earn some cash and some respect, you're doing a different kind of sex work, one that does provide you with a more reliable sense of agency?

    I'd say so, yeah. And add to that a palpable sense of taking your voice back - that not only have you been voiceless, but other people have felt fine talking about you without talking to you.

    And some other sex workers react to it like this:

    I’m also a sex worker involved in the sex worker’s rights movement in motherfucking AUSTRALIA. And at least once every couple of months, a random Australian sex worker from a random part of Australia will post a link on the SW mailing lists to one of Ren’s posts with a “fuck yeah!” or a “look what Renegade Evolution is saying on this one!”

    That'd make me feel valuable...

    Ren also talks about how, given she's in sex work by choice, she feels she has a responsibility to other sex workers who have less choice and less power than she does. Hence the work she does with SWOP.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Cecelia,

    But if all else fails, I damn hope this would sink in: "You're my child, and I love you ESPECIALLY when I vehemently disapprove of your choices. And if things turn to shit, you know where I am and, no matter how pissed off you make me, my door's always open."

    Great words - I've just had a situation this weekend where I've had to support a child in a situation I disapprove of - your words remind me to bear with it without being judgemental! (It wasn't prostitution, but...)

    Do any of you watch Coro St? It has been looking at the issue of sex working in its soapy way. Our Leanne has been working as a call girl to make money to get herself ahead.

    Hibiscus Coast • Since Apr 2008 • 559 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    why on earth are any of us doing it for free -

    Perhaps it's because we have a different set of values and for some,"doing it" can be paid for in other than money ways,ie.. not free. An escort I knew would enjoy the ego boost, free meal, good wages and that was before he even negotiated after midnight fees. So for him, money was initially the driving factor. A wonderful woman I know has spent her entire life seeking pleasure with the ability to deliver also, and firmly accepts that she gets holidays, accommodation , and meals.and gifts and this is a job she has continued for many,many years. This person wants for nothing. She has consequently seen the world. I guess that could be her fee.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    I really really wish you had put a definition of

    NSFW

    at the TOP of your post.

    I know I should have remembered the FLA but I forgot

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    abbreviations NSFW, has an interesting ambiguity.

    Good grief. What could you possibly describe as being 'not safe for women'? I've never seen it used that way, but then, well, I wouldn't.

    I really really wish you had put a definition of

    NSFW

    at the TOP of your post.

    Sorry. Sometimes I run columns past someone else so they can spot assumptions I might be making that I can no longer see. This one I didn't.

    I also should probably have censored the swearing out of that last quote I put up. I'm always uneasy doing that, though. Do you rip it out completely, and change the voice you're quoting? Do you take out the rude word and insert $%#& so people know there was a swear but not what it was? Or just remove some letters - 'f*ck' - so it's still perfectly obvious what was said, which seems utterly pointless?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    Ok late to this and really glad I found it (even if I did get a fright when I stupidly autoclicked a link :). My bad not yours Emma :).

    This is a great discussion and there isn't much that hasn't been said and very well said.

    For me porn is one of those things in life that comes in the complete gradation from purely evil to "good". And for those who don't believe in good porn think about using it to help Pandas breed.

    And the sex industry is also filled with that complete gradation as well.

    So how do you figure out how to stop the evil and keep the good that is done? And how do you stop yourself from making the connection between the industry and the evil that is done sometimes within that industry?

    And how do you do anything without limiting what we perceive as peoples freedom of choice?

    Keeping porn and the sex industry in the legal economy is very important to make sure we can access those that need help and to allow us to collect real data about what harm does occur. From some of that data you can start to figure out that things like stopping child abuse would go a long way to preventing some sex workers from feeling that is the only career they have. That kind of indirect connection is only revealed when you get good data.

    I don't think there are any easy answers in dealing with the harm that undoubtedly occurs in association with the sex and porn industries. I guess for me that is the key - for some things in life there are no simple answers just hard complicated mistake ridden answers that require hard work and good will from everyone.

    The pay-off is that we might be able to keep the good bits.

    cheers
    Bart

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I've struggled amidst work over the weekend to find a story that would add something here, and I haven't. Here are some broader thoughts instead. Sex work is not something I know much about, so I'll leave that for others.

    We still live with the traces of a time when women were property and men weren't supposed to feel in public. It comes to the fore when we're talking about power in the sexual domain and the commercialisation of desire. It's played out in our daily lives and the sense we make of them.

    Power is tricky and far-reaching. Negotiating it always involves more than one voice, even if most of them are echoes. In more collective or authoritarian communities or groups (like some in this country) it is not the individual's choice that is most important. Autonomy and personal choice are concepts that just do not mean much in some cultures but they shape the story for the ones who write most of the history, latterly the United States.

    The best definition of power I ever heard was the ability to control resources on which another's life depends. When you consider all basic human needs, then emotional, social and sexual resources also count.

    Women have more control of those resources than is often acknowledged, and they remain a site of contention long after other domains like the workplace. Sexuality is often reduced to reproduction, which is subject to social factors like the basic wish of any human group to perpetuate its existence.

    It is no accident that debating sexuality and the shape of social relationships brings out the fundamentalists. It's not something we discuss enough, and many other voices deserve a hearing.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Do any of you watch Coro St?

    I never miss it. I also have a passionate defence of it prepared for any naysayers. :)

    Poor Leanne. She should have been honest about her line of work to begin with... she would have had the ovarian fortitude to carry it off.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Cheers, Stephen, that's a lovely thoughtful post. It's very easy to articulate blind certainty, somewhat harder to express a complicated view in a complicated way and hope other people can pick up the complexities.

    It's also nice to see that people can see that I'm NOT saying 'PRON IS GRATE YAY!'. Just, y'know, listen.

    But if it was an argument, due to its nature, personal experience is paramount. But then, this isn't the ideal place to share personal experiences involving sexual exploitation. After all that would amount to putting oneself on the block as the specimen in question. all things considered.

    When Georgina Beyer spoke on Prostitution Law Reform, and she spoke from personal experience of being raped as a prostitute, I cried like a baby. We were incredibly lucky to have somebody elected to our parliament who had that personal experience to draw on.

    I admire her courage enormously. But I'd never recommend anyone do this if they were at all dubious about it. Some people will never change their minds no matter what you say. Theory is all that matters, and rather than adapt the theory, they'll find a way to explain away your personal experience if it contradicts what they believe.

    Basically, it's like witch trials and the fall of the Roman Empire. If someone has a simple answer, they're wrong.

    IMO.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Cecelia,

    Poor Leanne. She should have been honest about her line of work to begin with... she would have had the ovarian fortitude to carry it off.

    But if she had been truthful, the gorgeous Liam wouldn't have fallen for her!

    It gave Janice a chance to take the moral high ground for once. But she didn't turf her out - she still loved her.

    Someone at work had the temerity to say that Coro St was low culture today. Welllll!

    Hibiscus Coast • Since Apr 2008 • 559 posts Report Reply

  • stephen walker,

    Excellent post Emma, and even better comments thread everyone!

    FWIW, I think that Jolisa's comment at the top of page 2 articulates exceptionally well what I would say if I tried to post anything of substance on this topic. And since I am not really up to that, here is her comment again, because it is worth repeating, IMHO:

    Thanks Emma and Anjum for both sets of links. I'm tending to Anjum's side of things, if only because I'm old-fashioned and useless at pole-dancing.

    Which is not to say sex-negative. Just questioning the excessive public commodification of desire, which has always struck me as a largely private thing.

    And the commodification of pretty much anything will tend to map onto already established isobars of power, as inflected by gender, race, socioeconomic status, etc etc etc. Or is it a chicken and egg thing, and those fault lines create the commodification in the first place? In any case, claims of empowerment inside that structure might well be approached sceptically.

    I also think the commodification thing is particularly relevant.

    And finally, Stan Goff
    is the feminist writer I respect the most.

    nagano • Since Nov 2006 • 646 posts Report Reply

  • Carolyn Skelton,

    I also think the commodification issue is important. However I don't think that older configurations of gender, race etc. map neatly onto the changes that have come with the intensification of commodity culture.

    The debates over Madonna and girl power come to mind. Madonna (and a few other women in the entertainment industries/media) has/have become quite powerful. There have been feminist arguments for and against this. However, it does seem to be a different configuration of gender and power than previously existed.

    The main questions that occur to me are: how much potential is there for large numbers of, and diverse kinds of, women to be equally powerful/successful? I also have a half formed question somewhere in the back of my mind, asking about the significance of women using their bodies to achieve success/power.

    Also, at the same time as the rise of more possibilities for women to succeed within commodity culture, there has been a rise in young women's anxieties about their appearance and intensification of pressures to conform to a narrow, and difficult to achieve ideal. I have in mind here a book written by an Aussie woman, which was talked about on nine-to-noon recently. It reported on research that showed some pretty scary stuff about negative outcomes for large numbers of women, as a result of pressures towards bodily conformity.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 39 posts Report Reply

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