Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: First, Come to Your Conclusion

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  • Danielle,

    I would like to note that the first person to use 'hard-wired' seriously in this thread will be getting a massive virtual raspberry-and-flip-off combo from me.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Andre Alessi,

    Now, it’s possible that a taste for written pornography is more common in women than in men, while more men might prefer visual pornography, and that such a difference might be biological rather than socialised.

    I think even that distinction (if it's there at all) is disappearing. The amount of erotic art on Deviantart is staggering, and subjectively I'd say the declared gender identity of artists tends quite strongly towards "female".

    I try really hard not to sneer at other people's kinks, but I do get a little bit surprised by how excitedly the fan communities on Tumblr (which again, skew strongly towards young straight cis women) embrace, for example, Destiel fan art, or superhero slash art (no linking, but there isn't a day goes by that I don't see Damian/Tim slash art so it's easy to find if you really want to.)

    Yaoi also has a primarily female fanbase, and that is an explicitly (heh) visual medium.

    The only difference I see is that live action/animated porn still tends towards traditionally heterosexual male subject matter, but that seems to be more a matter of the higher production costs making that an issue of economics, not something "inherent" to the gender of its consumers.

    Devonport, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 864 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    I think really only two words are needed to disprove this hypothesis: kink memes.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Meh. Just another researcher who forgot that evidence comes before conclusion.

    ETA: Okay, just noticed the title of this post. :P

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Speaking of credible contributions, I’ll take this opportunity to blatantly link-whore a new site, The Lady Garden.

    Fingers crossed that the beds are liberally planted with troll-repellent as The Stoppery seems to have vanished. Boo.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12363 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    The Stoppery seems to have vanished.

    No obligation, but I'd be interested to know, in general terms, why its life was so brief.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Let’s even just use Legolas, like in the pictures on that article. PLEASE NOTE: these tender “erotic” relationships are NOT SAFE FOR WORK.

    There's also Gimli-Legolas slash -- where *cough* enthusiasm overwhelms certain practicalities. :)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12363 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    There's also Gimli-Legolas slash -- where *cough* enthusiasm overwhelms certain practicalities. :)

    There is a TON of Aragorn/Frodo. There's a ton of Aragorn/Frodo mPreg. I just... mmm.

    No obligation, but I'd be interested to know, in general terms, why its life was so brief.

    All I'm going to say in public is "creative differences". It seemed best not to let it drag on. So we're doing what we wanted to do, and I'd hope the others do as well.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4620 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Ta.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Emma Hart,

    There is a TON of Aragorn/Frodo. There's a ton of Aragorn/Frodo mPreg. I just... mmm.

    I really have to credit internet fandom for teaching me that sometimes other people like different things from me, even wildly opposing things, and that is OK. I can just try very hard to forget about it.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    I really have to credit internet fandom for teaching me that sometimes other people like different things from me, even wildly opposing things, and that is OK. I can just try very hard to forget about it.

    To be serious for a minute, (StarSong has a timer on me, she doesn't approve of that carry-on), I'm a firm believer in "your kink is not my kink". I do find it interesting how HARD it is sometimes, because 'squick' is an instinctive, gut reaction, and the conscious thought "wait, I'm being judgy" only comes afterwards. But I've written some stuff I know people would find squicky, and I don't need them to approve, just STFU.

    However. I have a friend who writes mPreg using original characters and a species she invented, and I don't find that squicky at all. It might just be that she's a very good writer, because I can also handle her Wincest stuff.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4620 posts Report Reply

  • Andre Alessi, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    I really have to credit internet fandom for teaching me that sometimes other people like different things from me, even wildly opposing things, and that is OK. I can just try very hard to forget about it.

    I'm constantly surprised at how inventive some of these kinks are. I mean, Aragorn/Frodo is pretty tame in the grand scheme of things.

    Devonport, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 864 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg,

    Would it be SFW to google mPreg and Wincest?

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 802 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Martin Lindberg,

    Possibly not.

    mPreg = Male pregnancy

    Wincest = slash fic involving the Winchester brothers from Supernatural.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4620 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Wincest = slash fic involving the Winchester brothers from Supernatural.

    I hope you cover Starsong's eyes when you google those...

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Emma Hart,

    There is a TON of Aragorn/Frodo. There’s a ton of Aragorn/Frodo mPreg. I just… mmm.

    There's part of me that is glad George RR Martin isn't recessive about his seething, incandescent disdain for fanfic, because I'm not sure my tiny little vanilla mind could handle Tyrion slash.(I've already wasted enough times writing bingo cards for folks complaining that Daenerys and Prince Guyliner's wedding night in the TV Game of Thrones wasn't "romantic" like in the book. Not quite how I read the relevant passage, but you live and learn I guess.)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12363 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    There’s part of me that is glad George RR Martin isn’t recessive about his seething, incandescent disdain for fanfic, because I’m not sure my tiny little vanilla mind could handle Tyrion slash.

    Really not very popular at all, TBH. People seem to take his canonical heterosexuality at face value. (Jaime, on the other, er, hand...)

    Personally, though, I think all authors who get pissy about fanfic need to engage in some bridge-building. You put the story out there, people have opinions, people have imaginations; if they're not making any money off it, then deal. GRRM, in particular, is clearly fine with people speculating about future (or past) events in his stories, and what-ifs; the line between extremely detailed speculation and fanfic is paper thin. He can say he doesn't "allow" it all he likes, but to mis-quote Gaiman, fandom is not his bitch. Fanfic happens. The question is whether to be gracious or not about its inevitable existence. Graciousness gets you far more points with the people who buy your work than petulance.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Andre Alessi, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    but to mis-quote Gaiman, fandom is not his bitch. Fanfic happens. The question is whether to be gracious or not about its inevitable existence. Graciousness gets you far more points with the people who buy your work than petulance.

    I think that's one thing that finally won me over to liking Supernatural again, after originally having given up on it in the middle ("muddle"?) of Season 2. The writers have obviously made an effort to understand and appreciate what their fan base likes, and the constant in-jokes on the show and at fan conventions really are that much funnier. (There's even one excellent episode in season 4 where Sam and Dean come face to face with their in-universe fanclub and Dean learns what "slash" means.

    It can't be easy knowing other people are picking up the stories and characters you worked so hard on and morphing them in ways you would never have thought of, so any writer that makes their peace with that process strikes me as being pretty cool doodz.

    Devonport, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 864 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    Personally, though, I think all authors who get pissy about fanfic need to engage in some bridge-building. You put the story out there, people have opinions, people have imaginations;

    Fanfic seems particularly apt for Tolkien, who was afterall concerned that there weren't enough fairy tales in England, and he set out to develop a fictional world, partly as background for his made-up languages, and he hoped that people would use his tales as the basis for developing more myths and legends and stories.

    New Lynn • Since Nov 2006 • 1444 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Beard,

    Excuse my ignorance of the fanfic world, but: is it primarily limited to SF & Fantasy? Or do people write Gatsby/Nick slash, Murakami fanfic and Oulipo combinatorial erotica with the works of Calvino, Queneau and Perec?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1040 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Tom Beard,

    Trivia: the first slash-fic Con was Starsky/Hutch. Sort of cardigan-porn, I guess.

    "Shipping" is very common around non-spec tv shows (writing fanfic around particular relationships, though that sounds misleadingly unsexual). Castle, which gets a lot of shipping, did an episode about shipping a soap opera. There's a show that gives good Fan Service.

    There does seem to be something about spec-fic (horror, scifi, fantasy) that gives more scope for fan-fic - different biology, different social mores. But then we come very close to trying to explain the popularity of vampire porn.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4620 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Excuse my ignorance of the fanfic world, but: is it primarily limited to SF & Fantasy? Or do people write Gatsby/Nick slash, Murakami fanfic and Oulipo combinatorial erotica with the works of Calvino, Queneau and Perec?

    Rule 34, bro.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Beard,

    I ask because the closest thing to SF that I've read recently is Ballard, which is pretty much impossible to slash since everyone already fucks everyone else in every possible way. And a few impossible ways.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1040 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Beard, in reply to 3410,

    Of course :-) Mind you, creating Gatsby/Nick slash wouldn't be all that much of a stretch.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1040 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Tom Beard,

    I've always wondered if the casting in this was just Russell T Davies saying to fandom, "Oh yeah? What you gonna do now?"

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4620 posts Report Reply

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