Cracker: Get it Off
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I don't think all women take it for granted, Kowhai. I have to say that it gratifies me greatly to be a member of PA where there is a wonderful representation of intelligent, thinking women. Some young, some not so, who stand up for themselves and know what the word "assertive" really means. And a fairly large, if somewhat brainy and worthy sometimes, cast of men who respect the women in their lives. I love reading all the contributions of women such as yourself, Anjum, Deborah, Danielle, Heather, Joanna and others who spend alot of time really thinking about life, and asking questions. Makes me feel a bit more erudite by association, I must say!
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Tarred n feathered :)
Heck Jackie I feel you've vindicated my point to Danielle.
The raunch culture/expressions of sexuality, are more safe now than before (at least in the middle classes).
Where society is disadvantaged as a whole young women will be more vulnerable, but so too the guys are more likely to die in fights/prison etc.My position throughout was heart felt.
And is 35yrs middle aged?
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Oh. I also meant to say 'word' to Russell about how things have changed attitudes-wise. You were thinking of Blerta, and I always think of some of those early 70s American films like Five Easy Pieces. Some of the women in those movies are so... weird. They're not really even characters, just erratic, incomprehensible bundles of neuroses. We, as the audience, are definitely not meant to identify with them or find their positions defensible. The underlying message is always 'these women are hot, but they're so needy and crazy, and they're cramping my counter-cultural style, maaaaan!' I love those movies, but you have to identify with Jack Nicholson et al, or you can't enjoy them.
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Far better we examine the various power relationships, like I/O saying he knows past strippers who contribute to PA, making sure they know he knows - a little emotional blackmail goes along way.
OMIGOD!!! This is sooooo wrong Michael. But seemingly not the only misunderstanding you've had this weekend. I was not trying to blackmail anyone (into silence presumably?). I was merely pointing out that while 'we' were all happily discussing (as we were a few pages back) the pros and cons of stripping (mostly the cons) there are people who have actually been strippers and may well be reading our lofty assertions/judgements with .... derision?
Imagine if you will, that RB's wife was once a stripper (she's not, that I know of -- it's just an example). And here we all are discussing how strippers are exploited, they mostly end up on drugs, possibly falling into prostitution. Do we expect her to log on and 'defend' what she did in an earlier life?
Anyway, I'm over this discussion, I've got nothing new to contribute. RE the sideline into Rap songs: I think someone was mis-titling NWA's Life Aint Nothing But Bitches And Money previously.
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I don't know. You've admitted selling a beastiality film. That put you in a new light to me.
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Imagine if you will, that RB's wife was once a stripper (she's not, that I know of -- it's just an example). And here we all are discussing how strippers are exploited, they mostly end up on drugs, possibly falling into prostitution. Do we expect her to log on and 'defend' what she did in an earlier life?
I can confirm the negatori on that one. But interestingly, Kevin Rudd's sister in law -- outed as a former stripper in a lame part two of the cynical attempt to smear him -- is now completing her Masters in psychology.
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Makes me feel a bit more erudite by association, I must say!
Too modest, Jackie. You're erudite as it is.
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IO, I just checked, because I am a dork. It's called 'A Bitch Iz A Bitch', so I had a letter (but not the spirit) wrong. It's from a pre-Straight Outta Compton album, though.
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Yeah "snaps" for Jackie.
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Tarred n feathered :)
Roundly rebutted sounds nicer.
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Oh. I also meant to say 'word' to Russell about how things have changed attitudes-wise. You were thinking of Blerta, and I always think of some of those early 70s American films like Five Easy Pieces. Some of the women in those movies are so... weird. They're not really even characters, just erratic, incomprehensible bundles of neuroses. We, as the audience, are definitely not meant to identify with them or find their positions defensible.
Look at how women fared in beat culture. Joyce Johnson did not idly call her memoir Minor Characters.
And then you fast forward to Kathy Acker, and you think, well something changed.
But the other thing I was thinking about is what genres of music are more likely to be sexist. And I realised the heavy metal, once a reliable source of cock-centred drivel, has become so serious. It's all dark incantation now.
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__That's unfair, Deborah. It's a bit hard to have a meaningful discussion if I can't make an observation to the contrary.__
I feel really snippy about this, Russell, because reading back through the thread, virtually everyone was making a huge effort to avoid generalisations.
__But you put me in the difficult position of making it appear that I'm being insensitive or dismissive simply by disagreeing with you.__
Yes. I take your point, and I can see that what I wrote put you in difficult position. It is a two way street - once you had used one of my comments as an illustration of people making generalisations, it left me with no way to respond to your point about goths, sporty types, etc. which I really wanted to respond to with, "I take your point, and it's a valid one." Maybe we need to disconnect arguing about the substance of the argument from arguing about the form of the argument.
Truce?
As for modern music - it doesn't float my boat in any case, so I have no opinion about it. I'm more of a jazz, classical and opera woman. Each to their own.
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I knew there was a reason I liked you. But if you want to change your mind about some modern stuff, I've got some good recommendations, Deborah.
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Deborah
Looking back over things I'ld like to surrender as wrong on my misunderstanding of what you wrote.That said what do you think of Wagner and his representaion of Aryan ideology? :)
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Truce?
Hardly needs saying. Of course.
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That said what do you think of Wagner and his representaion of Aryan ideology? :)
It's very popular in heavy metal?
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Thanks, Russell. I much prefer peace, despite appearances to the contrary.
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Michael, thank you. It takes some courage make a retraction like that, and I appreciate it.
That said what do you think of Wagner and his representaion of Aryan ideology? :)That said what do you think of Wagner and his representaion of Aryan ideology? :)
That's another thing about which I have no opinion. I don't like Wagner either.... 'though apparently there are some people who do. Whatever. Wagner schmagner, I say.
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wagner? my favourite was hart to hart.
and stefanie powers was seriously "80s hot".
</saunters off to play lisa miller again>
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I get a kick out of Wagner (but won't listen to it), Marches, Pipes, & Haka. Often the story behind can be a little less than just.
Although not qualified to comment on haka (why stop now) the violence (including sexual) is a little unsettling at times. -
Neil Morrison wrote:
asymmetry - the sex industry is predominantly staffed by females. Yes, many women do choose, but why don't as many men "choose" the same career? (and that's "as many" - there are male strippers and gigolos but far fewer, and I don't believe that the numbers would even out if society were more "liberated".
There are certainly far fewer male strippers, but I am not sure there
is that vast a difference in the numbers of male and female prostitutes, The visible sex industry is dominated by women perhaps, but there is and always has been a busy male sex industry.I know quite a lot about male prostitution. I used to work for AIDS Vancouver at the beginning of the HIV/AIDS epidemic in Canada, (the mid 80s) and many, many of our patients and a couple of our members of staff - including the volunteer coordinator and my own secretary - had been rent boys.
Male prostitutes do not tend to organise themselves into collectives, have pimps or work out of brothels. But they are to be found in every major city, and it was part of my work at AIDS Vancouver to develop outreach education to help them and their clients to practice safer sex. And I can tell you first hand that the problem with educating rent boys was not so much about imparting information but making them care about their own health, the health of their clients.
I have never met a female prostitute and possibly their stories are less disturbing or sad, but all the same, I wound up regarding the whole transaction in prostitution so disturbing that I would find it much easier to forgive a man for having been a prostitute than having used one.
The problem with sex as a commercial transaction is that the dynamic is changed from something two people do together to something one person does to another. I'm not suggesting this is a problem that can be solved, but I do find the purchase of one person by another for sexual purposes depressing.
There is a great story called The Student by Anton Chekhov where a young man accompanies his classmates to a brothel to celebrate the end of their exams, but the fellow, who has been under enormous strain from his exams and is already emotionally fragile, is not only unaroused by the women in the brothel, he is profoundly disturbed by them, and all he can feel is pity and empathy.
A few years ago there was a case in California where college students had been paying homeless people to fight, so they could film the "bum fight" to show their classmates and have a laugh about it. This was shut down pretty quickly, and most people found it pretty disturbing. But how is this different from prostitution? The participants entered into the transaction voluntarily, and they were paid. And if you ask most people "would you rather be hit or fucked by someone you don't know and don't find attractive?" most people would say "Oh hit, definitely".
International Observer wrote:
Well possibly yes, actually. I guess I am guilty of being judgemental. I think if you want to have sex with stick-thin 18-20 y.o. models who shave their pubic hair off so they can look even younger then I am going to think less of you. (But if they're neatly trimmed models with an appropriate BMI then by all means go for it).
Do girls really shave their public hair to appear younger? The average age for public hair to appear is 11.8 years (in industrialised countries at least). Just how young are they trying to look??
As for "appropriate BMI" that's hard to determine for an individual. BMI is a tool for statistical classifications of populations not individuals. It's meant for population studies, not for individual cases. It does not take into account bone density, muscle mass or ethnicity. A more reliable measure of whether someone can be classified as underweight, healthy weight or overweight is by looking at the percentage of body fat, the waist to hip ratio, glucose tolerance and triglyceride levels.
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BMI had me a heavy when I was a lightweight rower. I've never trusted since.
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I knew there was a reason I liked you. But if you want to change your mind about some modern stuff, I've got some good recommendations, Deborah.
Not so much for home use. But I always enjoy a good live performance. There's nothing quite like friends, strangers, loud music, a few beers, dancing.... Alas, not something that happens very often these days, with small children.
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Hakas and shaving pubic hair. OK then.
Once upon a time haka parties were a feature of graduation/capping celebrations at most NZ Unis. Students, mostly engineers and science/footy types, would dress up in grass skirts, silly hats (top hats were all the go), and fake facial tatts. Then they'd sally forth to wreak drunken mayhem in the socially-approved manner of the times.
As a teenager in 1968 I was present at a meeting in the Student Union at Canterbury where the leader of that year's haka party was publicly challenged - by a bloke - to deny a story that he and his cohorts had forcibly shaved a woman's pubic hair and later posted it to her in an envelope. He refused to answer, but from his smirk it was plain that he was pretty happy for others to think he had.
In the early 80s the Auckland Uni engineers were preparing to set forth in their grass skirts when they received an unexpected visit from some real Maori, who subjected them to a short sharp consciousness-raising session that put an abrupt end to the tradition. As Jackie has noted, it was an interesting transitional time.
About Rex Fairburn - a reading of Jock Phillips' excellent
A Man's Country? from 1987 provides evidence that Fairburn was not just a product of his times - he was a sadly proactive and virulent misogynist. Great writer, marvellous wit, but not someone I'd have wanted to know. -
You've admitted selling a beastiality film. That put you in a new light to me.
Sigh
Yes Michael, I know how it is ... you suck cock once and for the rest of your life you can never deny being a cocksucker. C'est la vie.
For those that don't know the story, you can find it here in Bastards I Have Met. Basicly: in the 80s when I was young and naive I thought I could get one over Rainton Haistie by selling him a grainy crap copy of an animal sex video (one I had been lent by a Police constable, no less). Haistie ended up having the last laugh.
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