Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Another nail in the coffin of music DRM

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  • 81stcolumn,

    What you mean apart from founding a new musical genre. Supporting and reviving a number of independent labels, reviving the Vinyl format and of course creating new growth in a declining market. What do you think the spotty herberts listened to on the way home ? Get on the list at black market records and they gave the damn things to you they were so keen to get them played.

    I don't think the crusties did more than cover costs. No apra didn't get paid but I have a feeling that this man might have paid, I also believe he paid royalties on all the samples he used as well.

    Nawthshaw • Since Nov 2006 • 728 posts Report Reply

  • 81stcolumn,

    FWIW. I take quite seriously the point about the little guys with small turnovers and limited audiences. I’m not sure what the overall effect a sharing free for all will have. I do think there is still some room for adjustment with digital distribution though. There needs to be a really thorough look at the pricing vs. fidelity issue too. In a couple of years time this might come down to a three tier structure cheap/free promo res, high res and then for stupid old farts like me a CD ISO with a PDF of the album art; prices charged accordingly. I have a problem when paying for downloads is as expensive as the cd knowing the cd will sound better but that the artist in NZ makes more from the d/l. I’m not quite dumb enough to buy both yet. Indies should look at either DIY for downloads or collecting around a single low cost centre for distribution. Cutting deals with existing retail groups who usually pay someone else to maintain the online store doesn’t really seem to be the best deal in the long term.

    Am I the only motley fool who would find it really cool to put together a playlist online based on the Flying Nun catalogue for example, have it burned on to a CD with a nice piccie and delivered to a friend ? Bearing in mind that’s some people pay $40-50 or more to send a bunch of flowers. FFS. I can get furniture made at pukeno. Oh I forgot - the copyright holders could never agree a pricing structure because they can’t figure out how to share profits……

    Nawthshaw • Since Nov 2006 • 728 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    well so long as the dealers made money, that's the main thing

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • 81stcolumn,

    As usual you miss the point - the main thing was to have fun and in the end quite a lot of people got paid off the back of it in the years that followed.

    Nawthshaw • Since Nov 2006 • 728 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    put together a playlist online based on the Flying Nun catalogue for example, have it burned on to a CD with a nice piccie and delivered to a friend ?

    Interesting idea. access to a massive library of music, you comp it up like you would a mix tape and send it to a friend.

    I agree with the pricing of online downloads. they do not in any way represent the cost of presenting them, and a large part of this is the huge cut the 'retailer' takes.

    At present they're taking 40% of the income (roughly a 65% markup as compared to a shop retailer who takes 75% markup)
    an online retailer does not have a high street shop to pay rent on, shelves, and stock to manage, they do not pay for stock and then have take a loss on it when it doesn't sell (all download sales are effectively sale or return (SOR), infact some artists and labels have to pay a fee to be stocked)

    Granted our local download retailer Amplifer.co.nz specialises in nz only content so its not raking in the dosh, but it still takes that 40% cut.

    Itunes or any of the other world wide stores on the other hand......

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    As usual you miss the point

    I think I made my point, you obviously got it.
    I know what point you were trying to make but you're theorising that consumption in the name of fun excuses obligation to recompense,
    the people who had the obligation to recompense in this case were the drug dealers using the rave as a platform to sell their products. (and please don't try and tell me they were all good sorts who didn't make anything on their illegal imports)

    now what I would have liked to have seen was the dealers making full account of all their sales on the night, submitting a report of income to apra (along with a set list of what was played on the night so funds could be channeled to the applicable artists)who would then request 2% of total take in performance royalties (since you weren't doing an entrance fee) and of course said dealers would also do the right thing by submit 19.5% tax to IRD on their income, or whatever rate was applicable for their yearly income.

    too much to ask for?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • 81stcolumn,

    No you don't get this at all do you:

    i) These guys weren't all dealers, some were anarchists, some were disaffected musicians (where do you think the PA came from). Most times this just paid for their stuff. You're right I wouldn't have shared a house with any of them.

    ii) DJ's and sparky's like me worked for nothing, for fun when it all started.

    iii) These activities promoted dance which in turn sold records. I have never made a cent out of doing this, the scene would not have existed without others like me, and consequently records would not have been sold.

    I suspect many of the artists being played would gladly have waived a fraction of the 2% (minus administration costs) that they would have earned from the event. My educated guess was that these early events never settled a net greater than $4-600 equiv if anything at all. I'm pretty sure that many of the artists getting played made more off the sales. Which is why by coincidence, they used to give white labels away in the first place and turn up to sell t-shirts.

    Nawthshaw • Since Nov 2006 • 728 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    No you don't get this at all do you:

    why would you think that?
    can't you tell when someones taking the piss?
    I thought you'd get it when I suggested drug dealers declare their income to the ird but then you may well have been the only one not getting rich off the back of horny stoned youth.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    At present they're taking 40% of the income (roughly a 65% markup

    Well now there's your low hanging fruit right there.

    Why don't you sort those economics out before crippling my hardware, criminalising my software and snooping around my Internet?

    Thanks.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1616 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Why don't you sort those economics out before crippling my hardware, criminalising my software and snooping around my Internet?

    why don't you do it?
    I'm not here to fix things, just to make you feel guilty

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • samuel walker,

    well so long as the dealers made money, that's the main thing

    Its not really that simple, since (back then anyway, less so now) most of what they played publicly was designed and produced to be played publicly.

    twelve inches of wax. mostly produced and sold in the knowledge, indeed hope, that they would be played loud and often to as many people as possible. I guess my point is they were essentially pre-paid performance royalties.....

    Spiral Tribe.
    Orbital Hijinks.
    Goan beaches.
    Spanish coves.

    And many of the "extras" were of course purchased well prior to the event, or from other suppliers within the event.....

    for a lot of us it was more about creating a new peacefull world order via the magic of mdma of course......that worked out just like we all hoped.....

    Since Nov 2006 • 203 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I guess my point is they were essentially pre-paid performance royalties.....

    not quite how it works. if they're designed to be played in arenas then their target market is arenas, ie not on your laptop with itunes.
    I'm wondering how many people actually bought these records for home listening as much of that music only makes sense when you're tripping anyway, its dead boring straight.

    if the target market isn't putting in returns for performances then you aren't getting any cash flow.
    The big london clubs are putting in their performance sheets though so in the big league I guess it works,

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I'm wondering how many people actually bought these records for home listening as much of that music only makes sense when you're tripping anyway, its dead boring straight.

    its a matter of opinion and the tens of millions of mix CDs sold over the years, the success of albums by dance acts, plus the huge trade in DJ mix MP3s would argue otherwise.

    Myself I listen to so called club / electronic music at home, in the car etc, not in any way exclusively but whenever the mood takes me.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3209 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Myself I listen to so called club / electronic music at home, in the car etc, not in any way exclusively but whenever the mood takes me.

    straight?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    now what I would have liked to have seen was the [drug] dealers making full account of all their sales on the night, submitting a report of income to apra .... and of course said dealers would also do the right thing by submit 19.5% tax to IRD on their income, or whatever rate was applicable for their yearly income.

    Yes, and after that they could strap themselves to the nearest pig and fly to the next rave...

    Myself I listen to so called club / electronic music at home, in the car etc, not in any way exclusively but whenever the mood takes me.

    straight?

    So that's why he fled to Bali!! I can see it now: Mr Grigg in hot pants, shirt off, dancing on the beach, waving his Rainbow flag, inviting hot young men back to his apartment in Ubud, and telling them how 'free' he feels now he's left homophobic Auckland far behind him. All those years in the closet but now he can be who he wants to be ....

    ... that wife referred to on his website must be a beard - how else do you explain that they've never been photographed together for the Sunday gossip sections? It's all so obvious now ...


    ;)

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Yes, and after that they could strap themselves to the nearest pig and fly to the next rave...

    what's the emoticon for irony?

    All those years in the closet but now he can be who he wants to be ....

    hopefully you're a good friend of simon's cos that's some pretty personal jabs to make to a respected stranger.
    my question was regarding the need for mind altering substances to appreciate the finer points of 15 mins of drum machines and roaring synth lines

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    hopefully you're a good friend of simon's cos that's some pretty personal jabs to make to a respected stranger.
    my question was regarding the need for mind altering substances to appreciate the finer points of 15 mins of drum machines and roaring synth lines

    In any sense of the word, yes straight. I was going to point out that my good wife appears on the image on the blog but then I realised that its currently a snap of our dog who was anything but straight when the photo was taken (been licking toads in the garden).

    And Ubud doesn't have a beach anyway.....

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3209 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    And Ubud doesn't have a beach anyway.....

    I know - it wasn't meant as a clue that everything else I said was BS as well ...

    hopefully you're a good friend of Simon's cos that's some pretty personal jabs to make to a respected stranger.

    Wow! I wasn't making a 'jab' I was making an obscure crack about your comment "straight?". My apologies to anyone & everyone who was offended. (But should Mr Grigg be more offended that you think he might drive under the influence of mind altering substances?)

    BTW - I don't personally know Simon Grigg or anyone else on this site (unlike some of the regulars on PAS - does that constitute a 'cabal'?) but as a public figure he is widely known in Auckland, which is why I presumed it was obvious that I was joking when I tried to paint a picture of him dancing with his shirt off, in hot pants. I also don't know Russell Brown personally, despite me referring to him as RB.

    But to be clear: My apologies to anyone & everyone who was offended.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    duh ....

    " it was meant as a clue that everything else I said was BS as well ..."

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    But to be clear: My apologies to anyone & everyone who was offended.

    Much as I appreciate Rob standing up for my (?) honour, I was amused...absolutely no offence taken or presumed meant ;)

    And just to be clear, Its been many a decade since I've driven under anything approaching mind altering substances (if ever to be honest..although there was one night in 1981..nah best leave that...)

    I know - it wasn't meant as a clue that everything else I said was BS as well ...

    but Ubud did have a colony of gay German artists in the 1930s who invented large parts of what is passed off as traditional Balinese culture these days, so you never know... :)

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3209 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    I don't think that we're going to see an increase in gig going though, the kids have got other thing on their minds, (playstation, supped up cars and herbal highs) and the elderly take offense at the volume.

    Russell, I think he's talking about you ;)

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 354 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    (roughan is hardly unskilled but he is obviously out of touch with the wants of the audience)

    No, I rather think that after 30 or so years at it, he's lost a bit of hearing and over-compensates for it, at everyone else's expense. Common problem.

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 354 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Russell, I think he's talking about you ;)

    Thanks stephen, you've unsubtled me

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    No, I rather think that after 30 or so years at it, he's lost a bit of hearing and over-compensates for it, at everyone else's expense. Common problem.

    There's a few issues that can lead to unpleasantly loud mixes.
    if it was at the kings arms then the mixer position is too far down the back of the room. the mixer mixers for his position and everyone in front of him gets increasingly loud amounts of volume. If its an engineer that likes to mix it loud then that compounds the problem.

    Also there's loud as in building rumbling and there's loud as in cutting.
    you can have a big mix without taking the tops of everyone's heads off by being really careful with the harsh frequencies (treble end, 3.5 khtz 6 khtz, 2 k etc) and carefully pushing the bass to make a pumpy punchy trouser flapping sound. the bottom end tends to hurt less than an over powering top end.

    the other 2 key factors in loud sound are band onstage sound and room size. The smaller the room the bigger the effect of the bands sound and the less control the sound engineer has over it.
    The kings arms is a medium size room so screeching guitar amps have less effect but still if someone was creaming their amp with treble it could cause problems for the engineer. he would then have to raise the est of the band volume to meet the volume of the one loudest instrument in order to make a balanced mix (or he could ask the guitarist to turn down or point his amp across stage)

    you're probably right though. a bit of hearing damage is not unusual for someone known for loud mixes on loud bands.

    Really though you shouldn't be going to live concerts without hearing protection these days. you can get a great set of ear plugs that aren't those dayglow yellow ones at the rock shop. I think they're called E.A.R and they're skintoned and last for years, don't muffle the sound (ie all frequencies reduced at the same level) and reduce the volume depending on how loud it is, ie less likely to make you shout at lower volumes. They cost a bit though ($60!!) but you can keep in you pocket for years, I've had mine for 8 now.
    sales pitch over.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Really though you shouldn't be going to live concerts without hearing protection these days.

    I really don't get the whole loud live music thing, never have. I'm not such a massive fan of live music to start with - I won't just pay to hear a band unless I already like them, as I'm more into it for the music than the experience of the gig.

    But for me, the whole listening to a band play live would be vastly improved if they would turn down the volume about 25%. Of everything except the lead singer's mike, I find it very annoying that it's so hard to hear the actual vocals these days.

    Paying 10, 30, 90 dollars to have my hearing damaged for a couple of hours, when I could buy the CD for $25 and play it a hundred times in a much more pleasant environment... becomes a bit of a no brainer for most bands these days.

    Best gig I went to in the past five years was Karen Hunter at ARC in... 2002? Her with her acoustic guitar, about 20 people sitting around on couches drinking coffee and wee tidbits of conversation in between lovely husky singing and wonderful guitar playing.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6211 posts Report Reply

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