Hard News: Not all victims are equal
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There's worse places than prison.
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God can cop this one, given there doesn't seem to be any conceivable way to blame it on Bebo.
I blame unaffordable mortgages for 25-35 year old Auckland professional couples keen on living in St Mary's Bay.
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It's a pity these drop-kicks can't simply go to the Statistics NZ website and have a nosey at the crime figures. If they did, they'd see that the clear, on-going trend is that, overall, crime has dropped. It's that simple.
The other thing to note is that the jump in recorded violent offences in the latest statistics is almost wholly a good thing. It's the reporting of family violence that in past years has gone unreported, and a symbol that we're not going to stand for it any more.
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At the risk of being insensitive, the whole reaction of the Elim church people has seriously creeped me out.
Well, fine. I'm a little short on the sympathy front because they let themselves become the freak show in a media circus.
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Nausiating though it is, the Elim parents are doctrinally correct, with the book of Job as the model. Christianity recognises a personal God, ergo every individual Christian is significant in the universe, ego it's all about them.
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And did the media really have to drag this out into a week-long fetish. If it were any more morbid it would practically be victorian.
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ego indeed. ;-)
It is all about them!
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At the risk of being insensitive, the whole reaction of the Elim church people has seriously creeped me out. Is it just me, or is treating the death of your children primarily as some sort of test from God just further proof that all fundies of whatever religious persuasion have a tendency towards being death cults?
The only tendency in that statement seems to be your reaching for something to bash religion with.
I'm as critical of the one-eyed bigotry that can come with Christianity and not at all religious myself, but in this case the good sides of it have shown through - compassion leading to a refusal to play the blame game without evidence, a community that comes together to support those in their grief, a personal belief that aids in dealing with grief over death etc etc. To be "creeped out" by someone's faith is possibly excusable; to claim that an individuals reasonable personal response to the death of their child makes their religion a death cult is unfortunately another example of one-eyed bigotry to me.
Personally I think all involved in that community have been extraordinary. The principal of that school in particular.Let alone giving front-page credence to one survivor's belief that a deity personally intervened to suspend the laws of nature in order to save him (while neglecting to do the same for his mates and instructor). It's one thing for a survivor to think this. It's another for 'serious' media outlets to lend it respectability.
And sorry, but this is even worst - lending credibility? This was reporting of an individuals experience and response to it. Sorry that it doesn't accord with your views on thing but it was his response and as such is part of the story.
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Rich of Obz said:
making jail sentences open only to violent crime and the most heinous dishonesty.
Couldn't agree more. I put it another way two years ago: "narrowly tailor the criminal law so as to prohibit only those activities which are manifestly incompatible with the rights of others in a free and democratic society."
No victim, no crime. And the victim has to be a real human being, not just a vaguely disconcerted 'community' (see: party pills).
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I'm personally not particularly grossed out by that - it's the tendency to use this horrible tragedy as an evangelical platform that gets my hackles up - even if it isn't intentional on their part. However, I consider it a universal right to discuss my personal reaction in a public forum without accusations of bothering the god-baiters.
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It's way harsh to call them dropkicks just because they are victims of crime who have turned up to a forum to hopefully hear some words of wisdom about how violent crime is being addressed by political parties.
So they should have just stayed home and looked at the Statistics NZ web site, to rationalise their situation, get some perspective, get a grip and reassure themselves? Great.
Something that revolted me about the Tongariro river tragedy media coverage was the counter "kids in the wilderness" story on the NEWS the other night, about a Californian seven-year-old who, after seeing it on TV, decided on a whim to climb Mt Kilamanjaro. His parents indulged and funded his far-fetched aspiration, recruiting a film crew to accompany them, carrying his pack all the way, comforting him when the wind got cold, and then touting it as a story of inspiration. They filmed the wee bugger chirping precociously "you can do anything if you put your mind to it!", and our own newsreader simply gushed over the story. WHY? WHY?
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the whole reaction of the Elim church people has seriously creeped me out
I think we can cut them some slack. People do & say some weird things when they've just had a bereavement (even when they've been expecting it for a while, so I can only guess at the mindset of these folk), I wouldn't get too uppity unless they're saying the same things in a month or so.
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The two things I dislike most about the Sensible Sentencing Trust:
I'll add a third: they want to reintroduce the death penalty. They're not sensible; they're sadistic.
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At the risk of being insensitive, the whole reaction of the Elim church people has seriously creeped me out.
I'm with Gareth on this. Whether or not it's the right reaction - and it wouldn't be mine - it's a lot more mature than a lot of people would react to losing six kids and a teacher like that.
Their willingness to understand that no one at the OPC would have ever wanted this, and that their questions will probably be answered by the investigations that are going on, but that nothing is gained by screaming in anger at the OPC staff who are all probably grieving too.
I'm not religious at all, but sometimes religion can be a path to mature, humane responses to the world, and if it doesn't hurt in other ways, that's OK surely. I don't know anything about the Elim Church, but we should bag on the wacko religions causing harm in the world before we start telling people who have lost six kids how they should grieve, surely.
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Gareth said:
And sorry, but this is even worst - lending credibility? This was reporting of an individuals experience and response to it. Sorry that it doesn't accord with your views on thing but it was his response and as such is part of the story.
I see what you mean, but bearing in mind the survivor certainly meant it literally (not in the metaphorical "thank God!" sense), and that such claims about supernatural intervention in everyday life contradict, well, everything we know about how the natural world works, it seems pretty bloody strange to me to grant it such publicity.
Or, at the very least, why not ask the obvious question: "why did God personally intervene to save just this one guy, while leaving his faultless classmates to their fates?"
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One does, I suspect, have a choice as to whether one grieves for Mark Sainsbury in prime time or not though.
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No victim, no crime. And the victim has to be a real human being, not just a vaguely disconcerted 'community' (see: party pills).
Sounds like you're opening up the possibility that people can do things, as if they're lucky, no crime will have been committed.
Take that kid that dropped that cinder block on the motorway a couple of years ago. Dumb luck that it hit a car, but if everyone started dropping rocks, are we only going to tell of the one that aimed well enough to hit the car?
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The Elim school community has reacted commendably in my opinion... not jumping to blame, showing compassion, and calling on their faith in a time of grief. Yes outward displays of religion personally creep me out, but I am not going to judge the community, simply for being in the spotlight. I am with Kyle and Gareth on this.
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It's way harsh to call them dropkicks just because they are victims of crime who have turned up to a forum to hopefully hear some words of wisdom about how violent crime is being addressed by political parties.
So they should have just stayed home and looked at the Statistics NZ web site, to rationalise their situation, get some perspective, get a grip and reassure themselves? Great.
I was refering to the SST, not the actual victims. Yes, I do reckon the SST should look at the statistics, rather than lying about an increase.
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Hi Kyle - certainly not my intent. I think behaviour that is highly likely to endanger others, and thus produce a victim, (drunk driving, dropping cinder blocks) should be covered too. A charge like "reckless endangerment" or some such I imagine.
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Or, at the very least, why not ask the obvious question: "why did God personally intervene to save just this one guy, while leaving his faultless classmates to their fates?"
And the traditional response is that it is impossible for a human being to know the divine plan, and is required to have faith instead. The kid's response was typical of the Evangelical style - as opposed to the more traditional "be humble and give thanks". One shouldn't tar all Christians with the same brush (lapsed Catholic agnostic myself)
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I was refering to the SST, not the actual victims.
I didn't read it like that... I see now.
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No God zone had a post up last week about the tragedy and the elm churches reaction.
Personally I think it's just a reaction of people trying to deal with the shock of it. Of course we aren't going to get a well reasoned argument out of them.
I'm been pretty slack and haven't really been watching or reading the news. Only found out about it a couple of days after the event, so couldn't really say much about the media's coverage. But I have always hated having to watch interviews of victims families about how they feel, while they are still in shock. -
Much as we'd like to dispense with the SSTrust's oversimplified, vitriolic nonsense withot further consideration, this - unfortunately - does them a disservice.
From their membership's POV, serious crime and its perp's are as intolerable as the loss of their loved ones. Any crime rate is therefore the wrong one, besides the big fat zero.
When Nicole was hit on Ponsonby road by 2 guys racing each other, she died. Devonportians can now vis. a statue where she used to have a flower barrow. She was - to be brief - one of the greats.
The driver of the car that made impact got one year, the other got let off. We - her friends and family (some of whom - not me - hang out with SSTrust) - can't help but compare that to seemingly lesser crimes (i.e. that don't cause death: corporate crime, to pick a safe e.g. Various forms of abuse, to cite another) with longer sentences.
Maybe that one year (less parole) completely ruined the guy's life. Maybe it even had some kind of osmosis effect on his *conspirator's* life too (hmm). But then again, he may have sailed through to purchase himself a new corvette on the day of his release, and be happily living the Death Proof fantasy of boy racers everywhere. We just don't know (if you're out there, I for one would sincerely treat with respect any serious attempt at dialogue).
So, what is justice? Either the correction of the perp's ways, or some officially sanctioned misfortune to the perp, equal to that of the victim?
To the SST's frustration, the crime seems to all about the perp, and nothing about the victim.
The claim on these pages has the crime rate reducing. At the very least, the SST is clearly lacking appropriate support in dealing with their losses. To that extent at least the justice system is failing them.
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Meanwhile, a story that's not getting as much mileage as it should:
Indeed. As Bush's Presidency and Administration draws to a close I expect we will see more of this sort of reporting.
The New York Times has a great article on just how objective all those Generals and military analysts we see on the telly really are.
One Aussie is certainly not impressed.
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