Hard News: Right This Time?
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Hmmm ... interesting. It has just been suggested to me that Labour's new, liberal intake helped dissuade some older hands from the idea of "doing a Brash" over the issues at hand.
Think there's an equivalent caucus in National that might help gurantee that (relative) sanity breaks out? Stranger things have happened, and in this case it would be a considerable public service...
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Hmmm ... interesting. It has just been suggested to me that Labour's new, liberal intake helped dissuade some older hands from the idea of "doing a Brash" over the issues at hand.
Good, because if they tried it I'd never vote for them again.
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yeah FWIW i'm born and raised in otago and am 100 percent samoan, 50 percent palagi with maori kids who can claim a percentage of ngai tahu
while I might wish he'd express it with some better measure, the rest of his argument does represent questions we should be allowed to consider. Ngai Tahu is not beyond criticism.
its the written 'expression with some better measure' that got us here in the first place. if 'people' were straight up and called a spade a spade:) there'd be a lot less pussy footing round the issue.
i mean, i'd like to think theres only one way you can interpret what i say and that anyone from a high court lawyer to one of the cuzzies out the back block can understand me. now that's kinda cool, dont you think ? if only the treaty were that way too. next you'll be pulling me up on grammar, punctuation and spelling.
lik dat ish rly matterz nw...pffft
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Think there's an equivalent caucus in National that might help gurantee that (relative) sanity breaks out? Stranger things have happened...
I think there is. But crystal balls are fickle devices.
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Think there's an equivalent caucus in National that might help gurantee that (relative) sanity breaks out? Stranger things have happened, and in this case it would be a considerable public service...
I think the attorney general would be at the front of that group. And the message is "look, calm down, this is do-able" ...
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And the message is "look, calm down, this is do-able" ...
Tricky, as well -- but who goes into politics for a quiet life? :)
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Definate waves of immigration Wai Taha 11thC(?), Ngati MaMoe 16thC, Kai Tahu 17thC, Pakeha 19thC.
There are a few New Age (pakeha) claiming a cosmic consciousness as Wai Taha a pre-maori people.They're not using the concept that there were no Maori before the other, the European. It is quite fanciful and at first blush a bit hippy, then they start connecting it to the Celts and I tend to leave at that point.
http://www.hurunui.govt.nz/Information/HurunuiInformation/Waitaha+Statues.htm \
That said, there are real issues within Te Waiponamu. -
BTW, i was driving back from dropping the kids off at the turning circle to catch the bus to school and seen some dude and his lady drive their hi lux and boat out onto the estuary at low tide to put it in the channel.
thats not cool and prompted the local iwi to block access to the estuary in the first place thus becoming a major catalyst for the whole foreshore debate
i'm gonna see about putting up a sign saying no vehicle access beyond the gate/boatramp and qualify it with "surveillance cameras are operating".
if that doesnt work then i might start tagging vehicles and slashing tyres. whaddayreckin?
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Venting is good, acting on it is bad.
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It certainly wasn't cool. It might add some context, though, to note that dubmugga is brown-skinned himself.
Yes. I know. Does that give him an excuse to use asshole-flavoured gendered insults? Because it doesn't anywhere else on PAS.
Ngai Tahu is not beyond criticism.
Has anyone said anything of the kind? Sheez. I just think it's a bit bloody rough to get all 'they're not indigenous!' on Ngai Tahu considering most of the pre-European history of NZ has been characterised by waves of different iwi moving across the country waging war or making strategic alliances. (There was plenty of intermarriage between Ngai Tahu and Kati Mamoe, for example.)
They certainly appear to have a rather feudal way of doing things, in that little tangible benefit seems to reach the wider Iwi.
I sort of ignore all the political machinations, so you're probably right about their 'feudal' structure, but I would like to note that my whole family is enrolled in their retirement savings account, Whai Rawa, which matches savings up to a certain amount and gives regular payouts to those over 50, as well as helping young people go to university or put a deposit on a house. I mean, that doesn't totally suck for the wider iwi...
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if 'people' were straight up and called a spade a spade:) there'd be a lot less pussy footing round the issue.
Which, for me, is what Eddie Clark did earlier in this thread when he described Labour's Foreshore and Seabed debacle as "vile, racist, legally illiterate populism." Amen to that.
There are a few New Age (pakeha) claiming a cosmic consciousness as Wai Taha a pre-maori people.
If they're not fools they're scoundrels. quite likely a bit of both. Much like the squatter in North-Western Australia's Kimberley, who advances a crackpot theory of a vanished race having produced the distinctive indigenous rock art of that area, and benefits from running spurious 'art' tours of his leasehold, while denying access to the living descendants of those who created the work.
In appropriating a bastardisation of indigenous culture, such lowlives steal every last shred of value from the dispossessed under the guise of mystical cod-science.
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its probable my samoan ancestors were waitaha antecedents and my irish ones arrived in the 19th century (or possibly way earlier also...heh) so i'm as much indigenous by birthright as any ngai tahu has rights to claim a rock sculpture as products of their indigenousity?
and yeah it's brailsfords original research into ngai tahu claims which showed them up for waitaha usurpers.
never mind the new age shit. if you ever sit at caste hill you do feel something infinitely older and more powerful than petty ngai tahu boardroom squabbles.
there really is something about that place
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if that doesnt work then i might start tagging vehicles and slashing tyres. whaddayreckin?
I reckon you're stirring. Calling a spade a bloody maori isn't something that's favoured in PAS, for good reason. But speaking your mind is appreciated, so far I like some of what you write. Just remember you're not down at the pub with mates, you're in a public place, you're surrounded by people from all walks of life, although highly skewed towards geeky white men, but thankfully a little less so than most of teh netz. Some of that is because there is a custom of respectful conduct.
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I sort of ignore all the political machinations, so you're probably right about their 'feudal' structure, but I would like to note that my whole family is enrolled in their retirement savings account, Whai Rawa, which matches savings up to a certain amount and gives regular payouts to those over 50, as well as helping young people go to university or put a deposit on a house. I mean, that doesn't totally suck for the wider iwi...
Thanks Danielle.
if you ever sit at caste hill you do feel something infinitely older and more powerful than petty ngai tahu boardroom squabbles.
there really is something about that placeThere's an excellent comic, The Kaiapoi Kid, in Officer Pup #2, by the supremely talented N. Wright and Jared Lane, that features an interesting take on Castle Hill. For me, it's proof that great art always trumps any amount of new agery
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Does that give him an excuse to use asshole-flavoured gendered insults? Because it doesn't anywhere else on PAS.
so i set a precedent. doesnt mean you have to follow suit and for fucks sake i said sorry :P
good on you for having an iwi you think doesnt suck but what about the wider peoples or is it always going to be case a case of every man hapu and iwi for itself?... kinda selfish, greedy and cuntish if you ask me and also why the treaty will always work in favour of the crown unless you sell out, take your 30 pieces of silver, all the national parks and half the coastline, then start wearing a suit.
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so i set a precedent. doesnt mean you have to follow suit
Trust me, you didn't set a precedent. The Women's XV and their supporters have worked quite hard to make sure it isn't a general PAS habit, however.
for having an iwi you think doesnt suck
They may very well objectively suck in a broad historical sense, what with all that suit-wearing and 30 pieces of silver-taking and whatnot. The jury is probably still out on how well the iwi-based claims process works for 'all Maori', whatever that means. I was just noting for Joe's benefit that Ngai Tahu do, in fact, do things for those who are enrolled with them.
ETA: I love the way I'm snarking about the cunt thing when 'The World is Full of Cunts' is still on the front page of topics. Heh.
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kinda selfish, greedy and cuntish
I think we can proceed, but it would help if you didn't keep using that word. I'm all for coarse language in context, but it's jarring here.
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...thanks ben, but what exactly is 'pub' short for and dont you think 'virtual' places like these are the modern pub equivlaent of the traditional haunt/hunting ground for the geeky white male and the odd jolly brownie ?
and as with a pub, if i get boisterous then i'll accept warnings and bannings, but only by the publican;)
as for stirring. nah i gather shellfish from there. it's a source of food for me and if they damage it i'm going to damage a source that impacts on their ability to source food. fools betta recognize!
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and yeah it's brailsfords original research into ngai tahu claims which showed them up for waitaha usurpers.
The waitaha thing is bollocks, and that's being polite; Joe described it aptly. From a historical perspective, it's fascinating to see how the story got legs, but it's not true in any sense of having actually happened, any more than the whole "the Maori killed all the Moriori and ate them so it's OK we took over" thing we used to get.
Moreover, two wrongs don't make a right. God knows Ngai Tahu have done some dodgy stuff (the whole Aoraki myth, which is now enshrined in law, is *highly dubious* as an actual traditional story) but that doesn't mean that they deserve to get screwed over.
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I meant what is usually meant by pub. A bar.
Yes, places like this serve some kind of similar purpose, but each has its own rules. I'm giving you a friendly notice of them, just as you could do to your dude and his boat, whilst in no official capacity myself. Seems like the right thing to do, people often aren't aware of norms until they are pointed out. I don't need to wait for someone to get hurled forcefully out of a bar to tell them that they're on that course.
as for stirring. nah i gather shellfish from there. it's a source of food for me and if they damage it i'm going to damage a source that impacts on their ability to source food. fools betta recognize!
LOL, I think you misunderstood. I meant you are stirring us, not the guy on the boat. You have no intention of tagging his car and slashing his tyres, because it's not necessary, not effective, and it could land you in a world of hurt. Just talk to him first, and take a photo if he is uncooperative. Maybe he doesn't have any idea about your perspective, and will be glad to find out that he's offending, so he can change his ways. Then you could make a friend rather than an enemy.
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and yes it's sad but alot of maori are defined and stuck in an 1840's mindset. i think it would have been better if maori never signed the treaty at least in the form of hapu and iwi cos it institutionally factionalised them and never allowed for new hapu or iwi while fixing disputable tribal boundaries into pakeha law allowing the good ol divide and conquer tactic to prevail. it stopped maori from becoming one people and one nation.
Actually, no. It's attitudes like yours that attempt to timefreeze Maori at 1840. Look, we'll define ourselves, 'k thx. The only immutable in Maoridom is whakapapa. Why is that ? Because it can not be changed, and everyone has whakapapa. You can (and do) have whanau who establish a distinct identity for themselves as a hapu within their wider iwi, which proves that traditional Maori structures are still able to evolve.
And while you may have extreme capitalist behaviour by some iwi, it does not follow that all iwi will follow suit. I'd like to see maximum participation and accountability in iwi organisations, but IMO it's all a bit like Europe: The Brits have not business telling the French how to run their country, same goes for me and any opinion I might have about Ngai Tahu (or anyone) out to conduct their business.
The long term strategy is widespread education, and this is demonstrably best achieved in a bi-cultural context.
just look at that wally in his suit and tell me what culture he's representing while talking about his family?
That's an incredibly narrow perspective. If you saw a Japanese businessman in a suit, what culture do you think he would be representing ?
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If you saw a Japanese businessman in a suit, what culture do you think he would be representing ?
Samurai Japan, of course.
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And while you may have extreme capitalist behaviour by some iwi, it does not follow that all iwi will follow suit.
I should make it clear that I admire what Ngai Tahu has achieved. OTOH, if a big farmer or an industrialist behaved towards the media the way Mark Solomon has at times ...
Anyway, here's an interesting analysis of Maori organisational structure, past and present, commissioned by the Business Roundtable (where Rob McLeod does know his whakapapa).
And last year's speech by John Tamihere. When he's not acting like a ridiculous adolescent, he can be quite thoughtful:
The new iwi Maori leadership do not want to talk about certain types of tikanga which have fallen into disrepair and have a major impact on whakapapa full stop. For example, the Maori tikanga of Tomo / Taumau (betrothals) fell into disrepair rapidly after the second World War and Maori began marrying and procreating for love/lust, call it what you will, our Maori ethnic group spread dramatically with others and this has continued apace.
In effect, the diaspora of Maori bloodlines impacts dramatically on everything from land holdings to the way in which the concept of Whangai (adopted or foster children) are considered. In some iwi there are clear protocols as to how whangai, regardless of blood, can participate, in others they are denied absolutely.
Further, the land consolidation and land aggregating policies conducted by the Crown over the forties, fifties and sixties, left many Maori bereft of any land holdings. When added to confiscations and sales it is rich for those who retained their turangawaewae to look adversely at those who, through no fault of their own, either cannot whakapapa or, if they can whakapapa, have no land holdings to whakapapa to, save for a hapu or iwi based marae. To suggest they are not treated poorly and differently is nonsense.
In think his point is that even the idea of whakapapa needs modern scrutiny.
I found both these papers really interesting.
Now ... must ... do ...work ...
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I never made any bargain.
It's like watching the social contract get thrown out the window. How Lindsay Perigo.
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I haven't looked at Barry Brailsford book The Tattooed Land, do you recommend it or are there questions about its varacity (which just makes it all the more interesting).
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