Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: What we have really lost

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  • Gareth Ward,

    I look forward to ACT decrying the denial of full property rights to citizens who had them taken by physical force...

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1722 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    One only has to look at the Unionist movement under Carson and the impunity with which the Ulster Volunteers were able to arm themselves to understand what happens when a large section of a settler population loses faith in their government.

    Funny, I see that period of history as more an example of a privileged minority resorting to force and insurrection to maintain those privileges, contrary to the will of a democratically elected parliament.

    (In brief, the Asquith government passed a Home Rule Act intended to give giving self rule to all of Ireland, having been elected on a mandate to do so. Carson and his cohorts formed an illegal armed group, the original Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). Both Carson and the opposition Tory party incited the British Army to refuse lawful orders to enforce the law and suppress Carson's private army. Interestingly, this significant bit of British history has been more or less suppressed (we never heard of it in school). Possibly because it contradicts the narrative of a loyal military and a stable constitution).

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4501 posts Report Reply

  • vangam,

    But why did John Key do a sudden volte face? Is it because he personally saw no problem with handing back the land but when it was put to his colleagues in cabinet, they did? If he was convinced it was the right thing to do, shouldn't he then be trying to convince the naysayers, instead of meekly folding to their demands? It seems a little spineless to me; the first time the National Party's 'base' jump up and down a little and he gets cold feet.

    Rangiora • Since Jun 2007 • 103 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    I look forward

    I look back on this Government and see the same Nat attitude as them last time. I reckon Key thinks money makes the world go round. No shit Sherlock! you may say. So far, money policies makes him a popular man. One policy gets the funding and everyone tells a cuddly story.
    Bit of money had to go on leaky buildings (24,000 with Lawyers, at least) this week, Budget week. How could one balance the books. Take from one so it goes to another?
    I think most of the Maori Party have held out for Whanau Ora. It is lots of money for whatever, but it gives all Maori a chance to do it their way .
    Then Tariana's personal quest, that of "pay because you're a smoker". The rest of the support has often been what appears to be naive, but slowly, slowly has proven many a time to work for Maori, e.g if you have the opportunity to experience the Marae and it's people, the knowledge of that is the wisdom, just that, the Mana and how easy it becomes to fully support the return of the land to the fully support this wrong.rightful owners. Tuhoe. Jus' sayin'
    The Maori Party must support Tuhoe, that is what their voters want, I am sure.(guessing)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6357 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Garth, are you talking about Tuhoe or the leaky Homes deal?

    Obviously ACT would be infavour of market forces/failures sorting out leaky homes.

    But seriously, when white guys can bring shot guns and batons upon innocent Maori youth and not get a conviction at all. Things haven't changed at all in 170yrs.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1147 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Sofie - there is an interesting South/North divide within the Maori roll apropos supporting the Maori Party. But, I am very sure, Kai Tahu support Tuhoe in their quest for a just settlement - simply because we've been there, done that...

    A long time ago, I chaired a local Komiti Maori(here on the Coast.) Early on, we became involved in the process of getting local input for 'Te Kereme' (also known as 'Te Kerema') - The Claim. The tribe's latest push for real settlement was made possible by the Labour government's decision to allow claims after the 1840 Treaty. It took a lot of local meetings, and dedicated work by historians (Harry Evison, a Pakeha, has been a huge pou for Kai Tahu) and other researchers; a great deal of time & effort, tears, sorting stuff out-

    my whanau & self took huge delight in the Apology from the Crown at Onuku, and the passing (with a swell of emotion that would do a tsunami proud) before that of the 1998 Ngai Tahu Settlement Act-

    and we celebrated those matters again at Kaikoura in 2008-

    and we will do so, again & timely again.

    Not to keep hate or grievance or feelings of separation alive (berloody hell! you cannot talk about 'separation' within Kai Tahu! We interbred enthusiastically & often, from very early on-):

    but - kia mahara.

    Remember.
    Tuhoe do (and Judith Binney is Tuhoe's Harry Evison - the Pakeha academic answering the Pakeha academics.)
    Tuhoe will have utu.

    (And before any loose cannon goes off, please, aforesaid loose cannons, go check out what UTU actually encompasses.)

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Excuse my posting please. I think I need a new laptop. It's all over the place like a mad woman's... something in my laptop,has a mind of it's own.

    return of the land to the fully support this wrong.rightful owners.

    should be,return of the land to the rightful owners.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6357 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    We read it that way girl :)

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    there is an interesting South/North divide within the Maori roll apropos supporting the Maori Party.

    Oh ,I don't doubt that for a minute.I do however expect those that voted for the party would want them to cover Maori issues and I imagine that they too would have divisions. We are talking Tribes. That really was my comment on "naive".:) Just feels like Tuhoe have been kicked and it needs the Maori Party to show some.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6357 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Agreed.
    But - as you say - "We are talking Tribes." And tribes dont speak with a single voice.

    I think - because there are still remanants left of the ould alliance between Labour, Ratana, and allied groups- it's about fucking time Labour got off their arse and made coherent supportive noises - better! MOVES! - to support Tuhoe. Instead of letting Chris Trotter, a racsist kind of spokesperson for himself, to test their waters-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    But why did John Key do a sudden volte face? Is it because he personally saw no problem with handing back the land but when it was put to his colleagues in cabinet, they did?

    Well yes, just as I rather doubt Helen Clark won every caucus or cabinet vote in her career. We all should have a pretty big problem when Government is run by Prime Ministerial fiat no matter what the tint.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12073 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Yes, that too. The Maori Party have played the "For the people" banner which up until now I haven't seen much of it, but that's just me. Labour could be getting brownie points here , which they might just bring in after budget. I guess I will send a letter to my local MP. I haven't been up with Chris Trotter but I gather he has ruffled feathers. I'd rather listen to the locals of the area. :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6357 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Labour could be getting brownie points here

    .

    As long as "here" isn't a Grey Power meeting in Palmerston North?

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12073 posts Report Reply

  • HORansome,

    I think you meant to say " Given what they were alleged to be doing and saying, I think the possibility existed that they could have hurt someone." To say that they were doing what the Crown alleges they were up to seems premature at this stage.

    Tāmaki Makaurau • Since Sep 2008 • 424 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Well yes -- and we all should have a pretty big problem when Government is run by Prime Ministerial fiat no matter what the tint.

    Actually I'd like to hear from Chris Finlayson. Key can take a back seat peleeeze.He looked like the fly hovering over Maurice Williamson tonight.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6357 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    premature at this stage.

    Fer sure.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6357 posts Report Reply

  • Manakura,

    Ko Mataatua te waka i hoea mai nei, ka poua te hoe ki te Moana a Toi, piki ake kake ake te mauna Pohatu, hiko iho ki te awa Ohinemataroa, tu mai te iwi o Ngai Tuhoe! Kua tau te Hamua ki Waikirikiri.

    No Ruatoki au, enari kaore au i te mohio etahi on nga kaiwhakatuma. Kei hea nga kaiwhakatuma? Kei hea o ratou pu? Kei hea o ratou kaupapa whawhai? kore, kore me kore ano. Kaore au i te mohoi nga kaiwhakatuma. Engari, mohio au nga kaiwhakawatea o Tuhoe - oku whanaunga me oku hoa hoki. Kaiwhakatuma? Clowns? Horekau!

    (You create a false distinction Russel in your ill-informed analysis of Op 8 and Tuhoe - it may surprise you to know many of the people caught up in the raids are involved in the negotiations, yep a number of those 'dangerous clowns', far from being marginalised are part of the TKaT team or support them in some way. Many are pillars of the community, others are not - but Op 8 bears little weight on how we relate to our own peoples. And I speak as someone who lives on the inside of both the Op 8 injustices and the negotiation process).

    Ko te mea tuatahi: ki etahi o nga tangata ki konei, kia ora mai mo ou kupu tautoko ki Tuhoe. Tena rawa atu.

    @ Gareth Ward: haha, ae pono! Kei te whakaae au ki tera, kua rongo au he double standard, pea?

    Ko te mea tuarua: Ko au ko Te Urewera, ko Te Urewera ko au. Ka haere mai he kawanatana pakeha, ka haere atu he kawanatana pakeha, ka haere mai ano. Tu tonu te iwi Ngai Tuhoe, ake ake ake.

    Heoi ano
    na Te Manukura

    Whaingāroa • Since Nov 2006 • 133 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I think you meant to say " Given what they were alleged to be doing and saying, I think the possibility existed that they could have hurt someone." To say that they were doing what the Crown alleges they were up to seems premature at this stage.

    I tried to pick an example for which I'm aware there's a paper trail, rather than speculate on what the hell these guys thought they were doing. But yes, roll on the court date.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19116 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    You create a false distinction Russel in your ill-informed analysis of Op 8 and Tuhoe - it may surprise you to know many of the people caught up in the raids are involved in the negotiations, yep a number of those 'dangerous clowns', far from being marginalised are part of the TKaT team or support them in some way.

    Hi Tane; nice to see you here again. I'll happily defer to your much greater knowledge, but I'm thinking of published accounts like this one, from a Tuhoe woman, shortly after the raids, which do tend to bear out the clown analysis:

    "They told me I had to come out and do an initiation and said they were looking for special people from each individual valley of Tuhoe to join their freedom fighters, and I asked 'what are you trying to fight? What are you fighting for?"'

    The woman went to meet the group in the Ruatoki Valley, where after a few hours of waiting a group of balaclava-wearing men, kitted out in army-style clothing, arrived in a van.

    "I thought I was going to be kidnapped - I told them 'I'm not getting into that van', but they said it was all a part of their initiation.

    "It was like secret service stuff, but they tried to get me to join their group. I just told them I was leaving and they were wasting their time."

    "And I told them 'take those stupid bloody balaclavas off'."

    Even if the rama guys were completely harmless, it does sound pretty daft.

    I realise this will have been traumatic for a number of people and I don't envy them at all. But my admiration for Tuhoe doesn't extend to what the rama crowd appeared to be doing.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19116 posts Report Reply

  • HORansome,

    You're making a claim about the intentions of some of the people arrested and a paper trail is not sufficient evidence of the intentionality of the agents involved; it certainly isn't sufficient to justify damning the alleged offenders.

    This sort of leads on to one of the many points of annoyance I have with the general media and public response to what happened in October 2007, which is that people assumed the arrestees were acting with one mind and had a common purpose (as if they were a cabal of some sort). This is something the Crown has yet to prove beyond reasonable doubt; there is still the distinct possibility that some of the links between the arrestees is mere accident and just guilt by association. Maybe some of the arrestees are, or were, suspicious individuals with motives and wants that the 'average New Zealander' would not approve of, but we must be careful not to assume that all the arrestees are the same. The Crown has to prove that; we should assume otherwise and act on the presumption of innocence.

    Tāmaki Makaurau • Since Sep 2008 • 424 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    You're making a claim about the intentions of some of the people arrested and a paper trail is not sufficient evidence of the intentionality of the agents involved; it certainly isn't sufficient to justify damning the alleged offenders.

    @HORansome: Russell is quite capable of speaking for himself, but I don't think he's doing that at all. It's entirely fair comment to look at material on the public record (and whose veracity hasn't been debunked) and say "that's ten pounds of bat-shit crazy in a five pound bag". (I'd also note that, at the time, both Russell and I had very public criticisms to make of some aspects of the media coverage and commentary around the raids.)

    That's certainly not tantamount to saying the accused don't deserve a fair trial in an open court, and the sooner Rangitoto is converted into Club Gitmo the better.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12073 posts Report Reply

  • HORansome,

    Which is why, Craig, I've suggested that Russell rephrase what he's said.

    Tāmaki Makaurau • Since Sep 2008 • 424 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    Seriously though, the mountain peaks in what became the centre piece of the Tongariro National Park were gifted to the Crown by Te Heu Heu of Ngati Tuwharetoa on the condition that they were protected.
    What's the problem with doing a similar thing but the other way round?

    No Problem at all. It's a great idea and should happen ASAP.

    Tactically I'm not sure why Tuhoe conflated this simple fair and reasonable idea with their desire for sovereignty. The two goals are separate and I think it is the latter idea that creates more disquiet.

    It may be that I don't really understand what they mean by sovereignty but for me it feels like dividing the people and nation that is New Zealand and that I feel is wrong. But as I say I may just not really get what they mean.

    But as for the first idea of giving stewardship and ownership of the Tuhoe lands back to them, I have have no problems with it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3472 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    [Screams faintly as Giant Big Pile of Poo blots out sun.]

    It'll be good for the veges.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3472 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    You're making a claim about the intentions of some of the people arrested and a paper trail is not sufficient evidence of the intentionality of the agents involved

    I really thought I wasn't doing so. I don't know what they thought they were doing.

    Maybe some of the arrestees are, or were, suspicious individuals with motives and wants that the 'average New Zealander' would not approve of, but we must be careful not to assume that all the arrestees are the same.

    I don't think they were at all. I actually know someone whose house was watched, as a place frequented by Kemara. He was questioned but not charged. And I can't imagine the activists had much if anything in common with that lunatic Jamie Lockett.

    But Scoop still has the photo showing one page of the Trade Me auctions won by Kemara on one of his accounts there ("cyber hori"). It includes a Sig assault rifle and AK47 parts, laser sights, camouflage paint, etc.

    The trading records for hunt4life and "cyber hori" were publicly visible for some time after the arrests -- Kemara bought a lot of guns and military equipment and sold virtually none of it. Yes, I'm squeamish about guns, but it did worry me.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19116 posts Report Reply

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