Island Life: Let’s learn English, with John Key.
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you'd really want to defend a employee covertly taping staff meetings? Really?
I would if that boss was telling his staff to go all out and solicit more investors into the Mortgage Fund, because the Mortgage Fund is insolvent and they need more deposits to cover their outgoings.
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"Jeremy: I'm seriously not trying to pick a fight here, but you'd really want to defend a employee covertly taping staff meetings? Really?"
I wanna see your side dude and agree taping is fucked, imagine what mayhem you could cause.
but he's a politician talking politics, would it have been more acceptable if he wrote bills answers down on a napkin?
I can't get passed that when you talk politics to a citizen you are in the public domain.
.....i can't work out the debbie does dallas thing. .....don't bring porn into it, it's distracting.
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Would a CEO of a company let a senior executive tell 2 different stories to him. He'd want clarity.
.....i mean that you're employing a government for 3 years, you're encouraged to ask questions. That guys got every right to ask and even challenge bill in civil discussion. politics has to be honest and consistent to work.
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.....i can't work out the debbie does dallas thing. .....don't bring porn into it, it's distracting.
Keep up -- you do realise that "Deep Throat" was a notorious (and enormously successful) dirty movie in the 70's? As the little sneak doesn't think we deserve to know his identity, I just thought I'd keep up a fine tradition.
but he's a politician talking politics, would it have been more acceptable if he wrote bills answers down on a napkin?
Right in front of English? Well, yes.
I can't get passed that when you talk politics to a citizen you are in the public domain.
Well, I can't get past the secret taping. You talk a lot about the public domain, but I don't think most members of the public walk around making secret recordings of their conversations whether they're talking "politics" or anything else. That's not the kind of society I want to live in, and I sure don't want to see the society where an MP will avoid talking to a constituent on the street in anything other than approved soundbites because they see themselves in constant risk of a set up.
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.....i mean that you're employing a government for 3 years, you're encouraged to ask questions.
And where have I said anything different?
That guys got every right to ask and even challenge bill in civil discussion. politics has to be honest and consistent to work.
And that works both ways, Jeremy. As a citizen, I've got every right to walk up to Michael Cullen and challenge him, ask curly questions and even say he's a fucking nong who I wouldn't trust to run a cake stall. I most certainly do not have any right to gain access to a private function under false pretences (and I find it rather hard to believe that 'Debbie' is a Young Nat), ask Michael Cullen leading questions and secretly tape the answers with the intention of passing the results on to the media.
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"Keep up -- you do realise that "Deep Throat" was a notorious (and enormously successful) dirty movie in the 70's? As the little sneak doesn't think we deserve to know his identity, I just thought I'd keep up a fine tradition.'
Where was I when they taught political / porn analogy at school? I thought we stopped (thank god)at "deepthroat" but Craig well done for reviving it. You'll never run out of titles.
"dirty movie in the 70's" - wot naked ladies and that? -
And how come Hayden Jones now seems to be television's designated "tits" reporter after his scathing expose of the misunderstood Lisa Lewis the other night. The humanity.
That would have been Paul Hobbs you saw last Thursday.
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That would have been Paul Hobbs you saw last Thursday.
Yeah, but to be fair how's a guy meant to focus when it's "tits-out-on-telly" almost non-stop for 20 minutes?
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Consider me distracted then. I didn't see it from the beginning but it had the same basic script as the Nicky Watson piece, and the same facial expressions from the "interviewer".
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[Jeremy:] Sorry if I sounded overly combative...…
No worries. And I agree with much of what you’ve said. The labels ‘Liberal’ and ‘Conservative’ have become less meaningful, although in many contexts they can serve as useful shorthand.
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__“a clear cut ethical problem”? You’ll be able to answer my question above then: Why is taping a conversation you’re involved in unethical? (And there's not much legal debate; it is, per se, perfectly legal..)__
[Craig:]... if I've got to explain why that's ethically problematic (as well as hellishly creepy), then you're never going to get it. Sorry.
Wow, great counter argument. I wish I’d thought of that rebuttal to my lecturer’s presentation of Anslem’s argument in PHIL101.
Steve: “but Lecturer, if you don’t understand why God doesn’t exist, then you’re never going to get it. Sorry.”
Lecturer: “But, but, but… oh, you got me.”if I stood for Parliament, and secret tapes of my sessions ended up in Duncan Garner's in-box? What the difference --
What Giovanni said.
Also, I thought it clear enough in context that my bland statement was a counterpoint to this bland statement: “taping is wrong without prior knowledge”. I was hoping to draw from that writer or any likeminded poster why they thought it obvious in and of itself that recording a conversation you are involved in was necessarily wrong. I’m talking about situations at least roughly comparable to the Lockwood Smith case. I’m not talking about breaching client/patient privilege, or the confidence of a friend, or bugging a politicians home, or wiretapping.And surely if I stand for public office, my history of mental illness (which I've been fairly candid about) is fair game…
Yep. Especially if you’ve been candid about it. I don’t know why someone would want to bring it up, though; it would most likely make them look like a jerk, and you would have nothing to hide about having been though therapy. (The sort of thing that might be fair game, for example, would be if you held policy views about mental illness issues that were hypocritical in light of your own experiences.)
… and any ethical/legal issues around a therapist leaking patient records would be trumped by the public interest?
No. Do you seriously not see the difference in the ethical and legal issues around your private files with a health professional, and the situation with Smith speaking with some random chap at a political conference? This wasn’t a private meeting of National’s inner circle, let alone a therapy session.
__but he's a politician talking politics, would it have been more acceptable if he wrote bills answers down on a napkin?__
Right in front of English? Well, yes.
What if he just remembered his comments, and repeated them later?
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What if he just remembered his comments, and repeated them later?
Then English could say "That's not what I said at all. You are either confused, a liar, or twisting my words". At which point you pull out the tape and say "Gotcha!"
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Exactly. In a perfect world, if someone repeated what a politician told them at a political conference, the politician would not lie to cover what they said. In reality, they would quite possibly try to say: the person misremembered, or misunderstood, and here's what I really meant. And we'd have to make up our own minds, based on the respective credibility of the two versions. But I don't see that the repeating of the comments in itself is immoral in any way.
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In reality, they would quite possibly try to say: the person misremembered, or misunderstood, and here's what I really meant.
The beauty of cellphone and portable mp3 players that work also as recorders, huh? Not so much big brother is watching you as big brother is you, watching, as somebody once said. I'm half expecting Bill English to be caught opposing his party's policies on Streetview next (a rashly worded yard sign?).
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As the little sneak doesn't think we deserve to know his identity, I just thought I'd keep up a fine tradition.
Careful Craig, you're starting to sound like redbaiter. yuk.
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WH,
@Paul Williams - I'm certainly no expert either. I suppose that the main priority for public procurement should be value for money. If PPP's can deliver the same goods and services at a lower cost then they are hard to oppose, notwithstanding the instances in which value for money does not appear to have been obtained. Presumably with planning there can be an appropriate allocation of legal and financial risk. On the other hand, government contracts seem to be regarded as lucrative (at least anecdotally).
National seemed to blissfully disregard the risks of its market-orientated reforms last term. I wonder whether Key/English are as pragmatic as their pitch would suggest or whether they are simply new faces for a familiar agenda.
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Careful Craig, you're starting to sound like redbaiter. yuk.
Yeah cheers, Steve. You might want to take your own advice...
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Yeah cheers, Steve. You might want to take your own advice...
Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
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Te audire no possum.
non possum, surely?
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OK!
Te audire non possum est. Musa fixa in aure sapientum est.
Pedant.
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I didn't even know possums were latin..
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An nescis, mi fili, quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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Musa fixa in aure sapientum est.
You have a muse stuck in your learned ear? I'm all confused now!
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Musa is one of three genera in the family Musaceae; it includes bananas and plantains.
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Musa is one of three genera in the family Musaceae; it includes bananas and plantains.
Yes, but more specifically the banana is musa sapientum. If you shift sapientum after aure it changes the meaning of the whole thing.
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