Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: That's Inappropriate!

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  • Tess Rooney,

    Ahh it's okay. I'm used to it. Any moment now we'll get onto the Catholic scandals.

    Although, assuming I'm wrong, what behavior do you all think is acceptable for teenagers? And yes, good point about 16 being the age for sexual consent. I mean are guys pro-teen promiscuity?

    Since May 2009 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    However it does send a sexual signal. I’m saying we should reign in teenagers from giving out sexual signals.

    Tess, I don't know if you actually remember being a teenager, but from what I remember, cladding young women in long pinafores and woolen tights (my actual school uniform) wasn't enough to stop the raging hormones. The length of the skirt, as many people have argued, is not the issue.

    (The rest of this isn't aimed at Tess in particular. I've just been storing up thoughts while I waited for The Land That Internet Forgot to get me here.)

    I quite clearly remember the first time I was called a slut. I was in a bar (the Dux, for those playing along at home), and I saw a male friend I hadn't seen for ages. I jumped up, gave him a massive hug, and proceeded to chat. He's an old friend. I wasn't planning to sleep with him. I wasn't flirting, except inasmuch as I flift with everyone. from behind me, I heard a friend say "Oh, Megan's got her flirt on" and her friend (who hated me) say "That's what you call it? I'd just call her a slut."

    I remember being quite baffled. I could not, for the life of me think what I had done, other than talk to a dude.

    Turns out, that's quite bad. So, if talking to a guy is bad, wearing a short skirt is bad, and getting my tits out (Emma, Friday = TOFO, yes?) is APPALLING, how can I not be a slut?

    And OH MY GOD, if I don't do any of those things, how will I ever snag myself a husband?

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    "Then when you do get married, they want you to have sex only for procreation."

    That is not true, and you know it. Catholics are perfectly allowed to plan their families as long as they use NFP, modern forms of which are highly reliable.

    Since May 2009 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    "Tess, I don’t know if you actually remember being a teenager, but from what I remember, cladding young women in long pinafores and woolen tights (my actual school uniform) wasn’t enough to stop the raging hormones."

    Sure. And I do remember. I actually miss my woolen tights, they were so warm and comfy. And any new ones I buy are nasty and scratchy. I'm not saying we can stop raging hormones, just that we should try and reign them in a bit.

    Since May 2009 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    Also, can I just say how much I love that over on the Twitter thing right now is Emma asking me to show her my tits. Perfect.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    Seriously, how? I am sure millions of parents and teachers would like to know.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    I just think asking school girls in uniform to have skirts that cover their upper thighs is reasonable.

    Since May 2009 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Thirteen, or Romeo & Juliet are all about kids growing into themselves.

    They are kids and need guidance. They certainly don't need condemnation or to send anymore 12yr olds to jail.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1144 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg,

    Am I the only one who had to look up NFP?

    Lower Grey Lynn • Since Jul 2009 • 789 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Tess Rooney,

    That is not true, and you know it. Catholics are perfectly allowed to plan their families as long as they use NFP, modern forms of which are highly reliable.

    It took Humanae Vitae to finally and very begrdugingly accept it - and still nobody uses it. I don't have the Italian numbers at hand, but this from Wikipedia:

    "Use of NFP in developed countries is low, even among Catholics. While Catholics made up 24% of the U.S. population in 2002, of reproductive age American women using birth control, only 1.5% were using periodic abstinence."

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    @giovanni - yeah you're right. Most Catholics are using contraception. The thing I love about NFP (sorry for not saying what that was btw) is no side effects from the Pill.

    Since May 2009 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    Romeo and Juliet... because THAT worked out so great ;)

    Since May 2009 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    (Emma, Friday = TOFO, yes?)

    Assuming it's anything above nipple-shatteringly freezing, damn straight. I don't actually own any short skirts, but there will be visible cleavage and lots of it. I will not be sexually available, nor sending a message that I am sexually available. And you know what? The vast majority of men I deal with are perfectly capable of working that out, even with the pudding-licking.

    So, yes, Christchurch. TOFO and drinkies, Friday night. Venue TBA, but we're so gob-smackingly lazy it'll probably be the Dux. I can call Megan a slut if that helps.

    Although, assuming I’m wrong, what behavior do you all think is acceptable for teenagers? And yes, good point about 16 being the age for sexual consent. I mean are guys pro-teen promiscuity?

    Again, as with the 'okay, so what clothes aren't acceptable?' argument, like I'm that fucking stupid. I don't proscribe or prescribe behaviour "for teenagers". Nor, actually, do I have any idea what you consider "promiscuity" to be. Except that I have a very stable long-term relationship, so it couldn't be anything I've done.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4326 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones,

    Hang on a tick – the Skirt in Question did cover the girl’s upper thighs. It left her lower thighs showing, though.

    And yeah, you do need to define promiscuity. How many is too many? What about the rare teenage couple that gets together at 16 and then happily raise three children? What about the careful serial monogamists who like Pascalle West are tops of their class at contraception? For what it's worth, I don't have any problem with either, providing the participants treat each other fairly.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 777 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    Promiscuity is IMO a series of short term, uncommitted sexual relationships that don't involve emotional intimacy. Examples would be one night stands or the tour de first year (that when people - usually women - have sex with plenty of young 18 year old first years - usually men - at university).

    Will you ever proscribe clothing choices on your own kids? ie - "there's no way you are leaving this house like that!" a la Brian Edwards.

    Since May 2009 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    Promiscuity is IMO a series of short term, uncommitted sexual relationships that don’t involve emotional intimacy. Examples would be one night stands or the tour de first year (that when people – usually women – have sex with plenty of young 18 year old first years – usually men – at university).

    And, again, what is your point, Tess?

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3121 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    So, yes, Christchurch. TOFO and drinkies, Friday night. Venue TBA, but we’re so gob-smackingly lazy it’ll probably be the Dux. I can call Megan a slut if that helps.

    You can, and you will.

    Promiscuity is IMO a series of short term, uncommitted sexual relationships that don’t involve emotional intimacy. Examples would be one night stands or the tour de first year (that when people – usually women – have sex with plenty of young 18 year old first years – usually men – at university).

    And what exactly is wrong with that?

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones,

    So first year women more commonly have sex with lots of members of the opposite sex than first year men? Or that the women who do it fall into the definition of promiscuous more than men? I don't understand.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 777 posts Report Reply

  • Dinah Dunavan,

    Did the teacher mean 'slut' in its traditional sense, ie. slovenly, untidy, dirty? A person who has lost all interest in her appearance and by inference her self esteem. That would be a concern. But not really an excuse to say "you look like a slut". Maybe the right approach would be to say, "you seem to have little care for your appearance, are you depressed? Can I help you? Or am I so out of touch with teenage fashion that I am unaware that the way you dress is the height of fashion?"

    I think that the teacher meant 'slut' in its more modern definition, as in a woman/girl who will have sex with anything that moves. Not necessarily a woman who is friends with men, for very long that is.

    Maybe the teacher really meant "I think your low self esteem makes you dress the way you because you equate casual sexual encounters with love or appreciation from men. Can I help you build your self esteem up so that you become fussy about the boys you have sex with and realise that they should be damned grateful that you're prepared to spend time with them at all". Of course the average teen response to that would be "whatever" (or am I out of date on teen vernacular).

    There is always the possibility that the young woman enjoys sex and/or the attention, and what the hell is wrong with that. Seems that society still thinks that women who have casual sex are dirty whores but men who do the same are studs, or at least damn lucky.

    Dunedin • Since Jun 2008 • 170 posts Report Reply

  • Dinah Dunavan,

    Sorry if all this has been said before. Internet not working properly and new/2nd hand kitchen being installed.

    Dunedin • Since Jun 2008 • 170 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones,

    Dude, you can't infer anything about a 14 year old's sex life from the length of skirt she wears. Any adult asking a 14 year old about their sex life based on their clothing would get and deserve something a little more emphatic than "whatever." Perhaps Craig could supply something nice and purple for the occasion.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 777 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    Jackie - I was asked to say how I define promiscuity, so I did. Okay?

    Megan Wegan: I don't know if I can actually explain to you why I think promiscuity is negative. It's not like I was a virgin when I married, but I have never been keen on loveless sex. I just don't see sex as a purely recreational activity.

    I think the people here are just very different in how they view the world that even if I explained myself I still wouldn't communicate what I had to say very well. I think promiscuity hurts people, but I doubt others here share that view.

    Perhaps if I say I think sex is best in a loving, lifelong committed relationship based on trust.

    Since May 2009 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    Seems that society still thinks that women who have casual sex are dirty whores

    Sing it, sister. Although I quite like the term “dirty whore”. Slovenly, slatternly…….I am all of the above. Only now it’s my house that gets the benefit of my dirty whoredom.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3121 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    "So first year women more commonly have sex with lots of members of the opposite sex than first year men?"

    Not first year women, usually in my uni social group it was older women that did the tour de first year. I'm trying to think of a guy that did it but I can't think of one. BTW "tour de first year" is specific to KAOS in the way I'm using it.

    Since May 2009 • 256 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    So first year women more commonly have sex with lots of members of the opposite sex than first year men? Or that the women who do it fall into the definition of promiscuous more than men? I don’t understand.

    Allow me to offer additional contextual information.

    Examples would be one night stands or the tour de first year (that when people – usually women – have sex with plenty of young 18 year old first years – usually men – at university).

    Tour de First Year is a KAOS award - part of the jokey End of Year Awards. I've no idea if it's still given, but I do know its origin. It was first instituted in 1989 to commemorate the behaviour of a male KAOS member. Whom I dated the next year. My first year. In a KAOS context, the reason it would most often be given to a woman (I've no idea, either, if it actually IS) is the hugely uneven gender ratio.

    Though I'll note that "plenty" still isn't a number.

    Will you ever proscribe clothing choices on your own kids? ie – “there’s no way you are leaving this house like that!” a la Brian Edwards.

    Seriously? You're seriously asking? You don't already know the answer to that?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4326 posts Report Reply

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